Defensive Carry banner

Strictly Point Shooting Technique Comments

5K views 48 replies 19 participants last post by  DS99 
#1 ·
I truly enjoyed the beginnings of a recent thread that was closed by administrators on point shooting. I am a novice firearm owner and user and, for my preferred 380, a Kel P3AT, it became obvious that point shooting was what this gun was made for and what would make me a better user of it. There are some experienced forum members out there who seemed to get a little "personal" causing the administrators to close the thread. Hoping that this new thread will put this subject back on track as long as we stick to the hows and whys of point shooting and none of the "other stuff".
My last practice at this technique (with a 380 and a 642 38 spl) was at about 5-6 yards and all of my shots were within body mass over a 6 inch wide by 1 foot long oval. Not great but they were all in body mass. My target is set so that its entirety represents my body mass shoulder to shoulder wide and shoulder to hip in length. I still think my lack of closer shot placement is my lack of practice and a tendency to jerk the firearm and being strong right arm. I am trying to work on grip and trigger squeeze. I also have found that my point aim sight is about 2 inches to left of my dominant eye sight. Any comments on this big tirade?
 
#3 ·
Some of this may just be the pistol you're using. Whether point shooting or sighted fire, small guns are still more difficult to shoot. The Kel-Tec doesn't give you a whole lot to hold on to. With such a small grip, it's easy to shove, pull, or jerk the gun off line as you pull the trigger.

Are you doing this shooting in point shoulder (arm straight, gun up just below eye level) or lower down in 3/4 or half hip (elbow bent with the gun quite a ways below your line of sight)? Both are useful skill sets, but the accuracy you can expect varies depending on which method you use.
 
#4 ·
Hey blackeagle: Thanks in advance for the reply. Hopefully others will follow suit and we can resurrect an good discussion of point shooting. Per your points, I tried something akin to hip point shooting and was uncomfortable with it as a novice. I'm staying with the more typical outstretched arm point shoot. If I improve to the point that I consider decent (and what would you consider decent at say 5-6 yds?) I would probably try a little more of the hip method, which gives you even more of a fraction of a second and "shields" your arm and firearm from the aggressor. I understand your point of the small grip but there are people out there who still can do wonders and I just want to approach their abilities. My 38 has the larger grips that are quite substantial and accuracy seemingly is not any different from the 3AT, although I cannot be sure from my look at the target holes.
 
#9 ·
Hey blackeagle: Thanks in advance for the reply. Hopefully others will follow suit and we can resurrect an good discussion of point shooting. Per your points, I tried something akin to hip point shooting and was uncomfortable with it as a novice. I'm staying with the more typical outstretched arm point shoot. If I improve to the point that I consider decent (and what would you consider decent at say 5-6 yds?) I would probably try a little more of the hip method, which gives you even more of a fraction of a second and "shields" your arm and firearm from the aggressor. I understand your point of the small grip but there are people out there who still can do wonders and I just want to approach their abilities. My 38 has the larger grips that are quite substantial and accuracy seemingly is not any different from the 3AT, although I cannot be sure from my look at the target holes.
Keep your 1/2 hip to 2-3 yrds in the beginning. As Matt mentioned, your grip should be tight, known as the convulsive grip by many.

Brownie
 
#5 ·
My last practice at this technique (with a 380 and a 642 38 spl) was at about 5-6 yards and all of my shots were within body mass over a 6 inch wide by 1 foot long oval. Not great but they were all in body mass.
Not bad shooting, BG would be going down for the count. Strong focus on the target is key for me to hit good groupings. Also I find point shooting on the move brings the shots in closer together. Starting out it took me about 300 rounds to get a good grip on the technique, been practicing & training regularly.:bier:
 
#6 ·
The most common mistake with people new to point shooting is that they bite off more than they can chew. One thing to keep in mind......keep absolute control of your confidence. Start off close and achieve absolute success before you move back.

When it comes to point shooting practice there should be two variations used each time out. The first method should be the basic geomety of "parallel to the ground." That is your "known default" which puts the hits low in retention based point shooting.

The second method is "eye/hand" coordination of putting the hits right where you are looking. Quality eye/hand coordination comes out of know default of parallel to the ground.

If you want to own point shooting it will require some more work. This work needs to be done correctly. Crawl/walk/run while keeping complete control of your confidence.
 
#13 ·
When it comes to point shooting practice there should be two variations used each time out. The first method should be the basic geomety of "parallel to the ground." That is your "known default" which puts the hits low in retention based point shooting.

The second method is "eye/hand" coordination of putting the hits right where you are looking. Quality eye/hand coordination comes out of know default of parallel to the ground.
Great info! I have been working on it a bit. It's been my main practice at the range the last month or so. Just got tired of punching holes with 9mm, seems like a waste. And wanted to do something more useful. Generally, my first two shots out of the holster are with a pretty level hand and tend to hit low. It never worried me much as I saw that as a way to slow down an aggressor and take control of the situation. Then follow it up with arms out- sighted or point shooting.

I never really thought of them as 2 different ways to shoot though. Might have to change my focus a bit and get the parallel shooting dialed in first. Gonna focus on that now. Thanks for the info! :hand10:

On another note. The confidence I have built with the point shooting from the hip has transferred to confidence on rapid fire shooting. I guess mentally I have convinced myself that if I can hit the target from the hip I can definitely hit it rapid fire with extended arms. I am less focused on getting great site alignment and more focused on timing my trigger pulls and trusting that putting the front site on target will get the bullet there at close range. I won't claim any one ragged hole groups. But I am putting rounds into the BG target every time.
 
#8 ·
How are you gripping the .38?
I watched one of the CPL instructor while he he was practicing today and payed attention to how he was holding his gun.
Went out on the range and held mine up higher than I normally do, as high in the hand and very level with my hand and arm, just st the very edge of the backstrap so as not to get pinched by the hammer, and found I was much more accurate. it seemed that tiny bit, less than 1/4 inch made a considerable difference both point shooting and using the almost invisible sights.
This video shows what I mean about grip:
http://www.myoutdoortv.com/pdk/web/smith.html?feedPID=00zG15zm84msK0GbWemanhJ0KNWQYqM4
I had a few shots way left of what I consider acceptable for myself and payed even more attention to finger on the trigger. When I got home I took off the trigger shoe that had been on the gun since I bought. I had been thinking of taking it off anyway since it feel considerably different in the hand than my other revolvers that don't have one. Next trip to the range will tell if that makes even more improvement, but I have a feeling it will help.
 
#10 ·
I've taken Brownie's point shooting course and I have the P-3AT as an extra gun.
His course had us firing 1400-1500 rounds in two days to begin to develop some muscle memory.
Now using my Kimber or Glock, this was a great course and gave me plenty to work on at the range.
I'm not sure that I could use the P-3AT for that many rounds and not need 'emergency treatment' for a destroyed index finger.:blink:

Point shooting is exactly the skill one needs to develop for 'WalMart parking lot' problems...close up, you'll never even be thinking about your sights, lasers, or full arm extensions...OMOYMV:wave:

Hey Brownie...how's it going?:hand10:
 
#11 ·
retsupt99,

It's going very well thank you, hope the same for you and yours.

I'll be back in Fla for another pistol course near Daytona in three weeks.

Involved with starting up a new gun shop out here 9 weeks ago [ www.thegundepot.com ] and that's been going well also. The business model is 50.00 over cost on every gun over 300.00 and 35.00 over cost on guns under that figure. The new shop is a perfect venue to pull students from :hand10:

Between the training courses and the shop, I'm back to 7 days a week on the go all the time again but life couldn't be better sir. Don't hesitate to call if you're looking for something I might be able to help you with.

Stay sharp out there :bier:
 
#12 ·
retsupt99,

It's going very well thank you, hope the same for you and yours.

I'll be back in Fla for another pistol course near Daytona in three weeks.

Involved with starting up a new gun shop out here 9 weeks ago [ The Gun Depot - Guns - Ammo - Knives - ] and that's been going well also. The business model is 50.00 over cost on every gun over 300.00 and 35.00 over cost on guns under that figure. The new shop is a perfect venue to pull students from :hand10:

Between the training courses and the shop, I'm back to 7 days a week on the go all the time again but life couldn't be better sir. Don't hesitate to call if you're looking for something I might be able to help you with.

Stay sharp out there :bier:
Let us not forget our ( 7677, you and I) combined course next winter in AZ.
I can almost feel the heat..
 
#14 ·
Hey guys: Really appreciate that this new thread seems to have a new home for point shooting. I think it is a very important aspect of defensive carry and that is really what this forum is all about. PULEEZE--stay out of the 'personal stuff" that got the original thread pulled.
Hey beni:I go about every other week with 2 or 3 neighbors to ATP Gunshop in Summerville. It is off of College Park Rd about 3 miles north of Rt 26. Great place--lot of supplies, guns and 18 shooting lanes that are a/c for summer. You can shoot literally everything there--they even will rent you an AK or an UZI if you have the money to buy ammo (their ammo when you rent).
 
#15 ·
On another note. The confidence I have built with the point shooting from the hip has transferred to confidence on rapid fire shooting. I guess mentally I have convinced myself that if I can hit the target from the hip I can definitely hit it rapid fire with extended arms. I am less focused on getting great site alignment and more focused on timing my trigger pulls and trusting that putting the front site on target will get the bullet there at close range. I won't claim any one ragged hole groups. But I am putting rounds into the BG target every time.
The Grip/Trigger Continuum


From my experience the grip/trigger continuum varies seamlessly from my long range precision grip, to my mid range standard marksmanship grip, to my "behind in the reactionary curve" combat shooting convulsive grip, to my "OH NO!" death grip.

Each section of the continuum has its perfect grip that gives you the very best accuracy, with the very best speed on the trigger (recoil control.) That is in line with the physiological response dictated by the urgency and distance of the encounter.

What is nice is that when I have time the body knows it and gives me a marksmanship grip. When I do not have time the body knows it and gives me a combat grip.......and it is a seamless continuum.
The very best way to look at the grip/trigger continuum is from the typical physiological effects of a life threatening encounter. Distance equals time....time equals urgency.....urgency equals the level of activation of the Sympathetic Nervous System (SNS) of the fight or flight response.

It is the SNS that will dictate how tightly you will grip the gun and how hard and fast you will work the trigger.

What is very cool is how well these varying physiological effects work with what is the very best solution to the problem. We are talking about a very natural, instinctive, and reflexive "sliding scale" approach here.

If the urgency is very high (due to distance and time,) the more we are physiologically likely to crush the gun and work the trigger hard and fast. This in perfectly in line with the combat proven "convulsive grip" and perfectly in line with the balance of speed and accuracy that is necessary for the specifics of the encounter.

As we gain distance and time incrementally, we lose urgency incrementally. We lose the physiological desire to crush the gun and work the trigger fast and hard incrementally. We begin to shift "the balance of speed and accuracy" more towards the accuracy portion of the equation incrementally. The grip lightens and the trigger is worked with more finesse incrementally.

This is a seamless "sliding scale" approach that allows us to be the very best that we can be from one inch to two hundred yards.

And it fits perfectly into what is natural, instinctive, and reflexive.
To me the grip is all about the speed on the trigger. When we connect the "distance" to the "urgency" it is clear that the closer you are the faster you are going to want to be on the trigger. The faster you are going to want to be on the trigger, the more recoil control you are going to need.

For a precision shot at distance all I want is that "one perfect shot." Now I may string a few of "the one perfect shot" together, but it is not about being fast and accurate. It is all about being accurate. Recoil control is low priority compared to trigger control. Relax, focus on the front sight, and prrrreeesss.

At mid range we are looking for that perfect balance of speed and accuracy. We are looking to get back on the sights as quickly as we can, as we recover from recoil. The grip tension is what gives us our quick “sighted shooting” follow through.

When behind in the reactionary curve and the activation of the Sympathetic Nervous System, the physiological response is to squeeze the gun tighter (convulsive grip) than we do on the range. This is perfect because we need excellent recoil control and the extremely quick point shooters follow through due to the higher urgency.

Way behind in the reactionary curve with extreme activation of the Sympathetic Nervous System. Death grip on the gun....working the trigger as fast as you can.....making the gun “sound like a machine gun.” The recoil control and the point shooters follow through comes out of the death grip.
 
#17 ·
The difference I am referring to is this, and I may be reading or seeing something wrong. It seems that one way to practice is to draw and fire with the firearm parallel to the ground. This would mean low hits on the target, basically at the same height as you are holding the firearm. The other way is to develop the hand/eye coordination to fire the firearm at the point you are looking at, probably COM.

Currently I seem to be trying to do a bit of both. I'm just figuring it would make sense to develop the parallel shooting first. Then move to hitting where I am looking. Basically, my range time is working on getting comfortable point shooting. But I would not say I am working on anything specific. So since this made sense to me I might give it a try.

I have not looked too deep into the issue. I like what I have been able to do lately. And I can definitely see a place for this in my bag of tricks. I probably need to do more looking around though.
 
#18 ·
No worries...there is a progression to learning point shooting and it begins with aligning the point of focus with the point of the bullets impact on the target. This is where having the gun parallel to the ground, the hose riding stance is so important. instead of drawing your weapon work from the low ready and raise the run parallel to the ground but keep it just under your line of sight. Focus on a spot on the target not your weapon and attempt to hit the spot your focused on. lower the gun back to low ready and repeat the process over again. Once your point of impact and point of focus becomes the same point on the target and you have repeated it enough times that it become second nature and has built the necessary eye/hand coordination you do not have to keep the gun parallel to the ground or use any certain stance anymore and where the eyes go the bullets will follow and only after you have mastered this stage are you ready to move onto drawing and firing. You learn the draw stroke by learning the 1/2 hip, 3/4 hip, and point shoulder positions which later become the draw stroke. Next comes how to fire burst or 2, 3, 4, and 5 and the importance of the convulsive grip and the proper 3/4 hip and point shoulder techniques. After that you are ready for moving and shooting.

Once you have developed eye/hand coordination you are correct that you will not keep your weapon parallel to the ground with the 1/2 hip position but change the angle of the arm and/or move the wrist to adjust with your point of focus on the target.
 
#19 ·
Hey 7677: I assume it is not unusual for me to focus point shooting and then, without moving my focus, look at the target thru my dominant eye--the focus point is always about 1-2 inches to the left. I assume that if everything remained the same and nothing else moved in my firing, that my shot would be off to the left about that same 1-2 inches. Is that correct? Should I, after focussing for a point shoot, just move the firearm over a bit to correct for that 1-2 inches?Hope I explained this well
 
#20 ·
Hey 7677: I assume it is not unusual for me to focus point shooting and then, without moving my focus, look at the target thru my dominant eye--the focus point is always about 1-2 inches to the left. I assume that if everything remained the same and nothing else moved in my firing, that my shot would be off to the left about that same 1-2 inches. Is that correct? Should I, after focusing for a point shoot, just move the firearm over a bit to correct for that 1-2 inches?Hope I explained this well
Keep both eyes open, focus on one spot and try to hit that spot. Repeat the drill and your points of impact should be getting closer to the point of focus. If not, adjust and make sure your feet are both toward the target and your feet are about a shoulders length apart and knees are slightly bent. Your gun should be extended in a two handed ISO grip and to check the correct placement the gun should touch the tip of your nose when you bring the gun up and straight back. This is the geometry of point shooting. Try again and by shooting these drills in this manner will adjust to gun to where it needs to be. Don't worry about your dominant eye at this point.
 
#22 ·
Finally had a chance to take my "body mass target" to the range and point shoot with my 380 and 38. I may not have been center perfect but all the shots hit the target, which means they all would have hit me on body mass shoulder to shoulder and shoulder to waist, with most pretty much in the "hurtful" main body mass. At 3 yds, they were all solid center body mass (I'd estimate within a 5 inch circle); at 5 yds some were a bit outside of that area but still "hits"--I did not go beyond 5 yds because, quite frankly, I do not believe that I will ever discharge beyond that distance--a great american once said "man has to know his limitations"--I will not put myself in that distance scenario without avoiding it first. All in all I was fairly contented with the results and definitely feel that the savings in fractions of a second over sights and lasers is the difference between positive and negative (not an option) defensive results.
 
#23 ·
IMHO, of all the VERY good advice, that the prior posters have given, I feel that perhaps the Most important aspect is eye/ hand cord. IE. if you take your "index finger" , focus ( zero in ) on an object, does it "zero in" on the object ??
The 1st "drill" WE use in a "basic" class is have the student (s) do what we used to do as kids, use our "hand as a "mock gun."Then they, from various potions , sitting, standing etc & both 1 & 2 hand, pick out a "target, focus,bring the gun to eye level ( both eyes open ) hold the "position & observe if the index finger has "acquired" the "target". And were they "close to "zero" ( note it is their call @ this point ). Some are "spot on" others are not. We then review & the possible "whys"& possible solutions. This helps the "student' realize that " POINT SHOOTING" is something they have ALL been doing through out their lives ( we all point out things regularly )
We then tell them to "practice" @ home, the office etc. ( it gets "fun" to watch them on their breaks, suddenly "assuming positions" )

The 2nd Drill, we use Laser equip'd " Blue Guns" ( @ this point "no trigger pull etc, just POINT ) Now we/they can see how zeroed in they are.

Drills 3, 4, & 5 work on grip, trigger pull, position etc.

Live fire does not come until the last portion of the class.

OK, where am I going with this ?? IMHO, whether a "newbe" or "old pro", repeated practice as above is KEY. & IMHO using either the "blues" ( safest ) or if your CC gun is laser equip'd, ( not as safe = MUST BE UNLOADED ) as my SP101 is

Blue Guns can be $$ & may not be a vail for you "model" but may come "close".

Gun mounted lasers also can be $$ & often undesirable to some individuals.

" Laser BORE sights. These range from "cartridge style" "magnetic mounted". ( here a place to get ideas SightMark Laser Bore Sights FREE S&H SM39001, SM39002, AD39003, SM39004, SM39005, AD39006, AD39007, AD39008, SM39009, SM39010, SM39011, SM39012, SM39013, SM39015, SM39016, SM39017, SM39018, SM39019.)

Your "642" has a lot of options, but the Kel tech is more limited ( laser grips, )

Just my input

Puffer
 
#24 · (Edited)
IMHO, of all the VERY good advice, that the prior posters have given, I feel that perhaps the Most important aspect is eye/ hand cord. IE. if you take your "index finger" , focus ( zero in ) on an object, does it "zero in" on the object ??
The 1st "drill" WE use in a "basic" class is have the student (s) do what we used to do as kids, use our "hand as a "mock gun."Then they, from various potions , sitting, standing etc & both 1 & 2 hand, pick out a "target, focus,bring the gun to eye level ( both eyes open ) hold the "position & observe if the index finger has "acquired" the "target". And were they "close to "zero" ( note it is their call @ this point ). Some are "spot on" others are not. We then review & the possible "whys"& possible solutions. This helps the "student' realize that " POINT SHOOTING" is something they have ALL been doing through out their lives ( we all point out things regularly )
We then tell them to "practice" @ home, the office etc. ( it gets "fun" to watch them on their breaks, suddenly "assuming positions" )

The 2nd Drill, we use Laser equip'd " Blue Guns" ( @ this point "no trigger pull etc, just POINT ) Now we/they can see how zeroed in they are.

Drills 3, 4, & 5 work on grip, trigger pull, position etc.

Live fire does not come until the last portion of the class.

OK, where am I going with this ?? IMHO, whether a "newbe" or "old pro", repeated practice as above is KEY. & IMHO using either the "blues" ( safest ) or if your CC gun is laser equip'd, ( not as safe = MUST BE UNLOADED ) as my SP101 is

Blue Guns can be $$ & may not be a vail for you "model" but may come "close".

Gun mounted lasers also can be $$ & often undesirable for individuals.

" Laser BORE sights. These range from "cartridge style" "magnetic mounted". ( here a place to get ideas SightMark Laser Bore Sights FREE S&H SM39001, SM39002, AD39003, SM39004, SM39005, AD39006, AD39007, AD39008, SM39009, SM39010, SM39011, SM39012, SM39013, SM39015, SM39016, SM39017, SM39018, SM39019.)

Your "642" has a lot of options, but the Kel tech is more limited ( laser grips, )

Just my input

Puffer
Hey Puffer, good post!

My ownly suggestion, relatively minor, would be that if someone is going to invest in the $$ to get a laser aiming aid for dry fire practice, they consider either the

Correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding of the laser boresighting device to which you linked is that it is "always on". So while pointing, the laser would be providing instantaneous feedback -- kind of like aiming a machine gun by walking the tracers onto the target.

The two devices to which I linked above respond to the sound of the hammer (or striker) hitting the firing pin. As such, the student points the gun (without the visual aid of a laser beam (if dust in the air) or a red dot) and only get's the confirmation of pointing after pulling the trigger. It also would seem to tend to reinforce good trigger control.

I'm not affiliated in any way with iMarksman, I just stumbled across their site the other day while googling "laser dry fire" or something like that. I recently read some positive feedback about that company @ the great thread mfcmb mentions two posts down. ( Review: LaserLyte LT-Pro, "Pistol Laser Trainer" (NOT GT :embarassed:)

If those prices are too high for someone, then the laser devices Puffer points out would be useful I would think.

Hope this helps.
 
#27 ·
Hey guys: Appreciate all your comments that are keeping this point shoot thread alive. Based on my last thread, wondering whether any of you would comment on how well I am doing. I realize I am not perfect but I would be hitting the slime. I tend to think I have two problems. 1)As a firearm owner for only 2 years without spending a great deal of time practicing--I could use a lot more practice and 2) I am overly right-handed including right eye dominant. Whenever I "practice sighting with my finger" and then sight thru my dominant right eye, my finger sight is always about an inch left and a little low of the target. I will keep practicing until that 5 yd target has holes in it that are all within that true center mass defined on my target and not just overall body mass.
 
#28 ·
Kelcarry for your groupings they do not sound to be that bad. What I use alot is a paper dinner plate or a sheet of normal writting paper if you can keep most of the hits on them I call it good to go.
 
#29 ·
I use those large rectangular "shoot nc" black targets that turn green when shot thru. I have them covering a large square of plastic sign material glued to cardboard that is, as I said before, the width of my shoulders and the length from my shoulder to my waist (essentially the area, if hit on my body, that would inflict harm/pain to me). I might just use and have used paper dinner plates and they are cheaper for sure but I like the real targets and they do cover the entire body mass area and are real easy to see.
 
#30 ·
What I was trying to say is that the paper plate or sheet of paper is good combat grouping. If you place them on your COM (chest) they pretty much cover the impotant parts.
 
#31 ·
From a chapter of my book..."Point Shooting Progressions"

Eye/hand Coordination, Confidence, and the Path to its Discovery and Refinement

Whatever you prefer to call it, point shooting, instinctive shooting, index shooting, reactive shooting, continuum shooting, blah, blah, blah does not matter at all. The bottom line is that it is the use or ones natural eye/hand coordination to puts hits onto a targeted area. It is the ability to make the bullets go to the exact point that your eyes are focused on, from any angle or any position. Eye/hand coordination is simply a teaming up of the mind, the body, and the eyes. The mind simply directs the body to align the gun so that the point of aim intersects the line of sight at the focal point. This is easy to understand, but not all that easy to make happen on your own.

We all know that the basics of point shooting has been broken down and taught into specific positions and stances (much like the four count draw stroke.). Now these “specifics” help facilitate in the teaching of basic point shooting and are a very important key to unlocking the door to your eye/hand coordination. But we need to understand that these are only the basics. It is my opinion, that if you were to stop here you have only glanced at 10% of this piece of the puzzle. To get the most out of point shooting you need to break away from this “basic breakdown.” Point shooting is not a stance, grip, position, or angle dependent skill set. It is a fluid, well rounded, and completely versatile concept.

But, the basics are the basics and they are a necessary part of the learning progression. When we look at the basics, we usually look at the basic geometry of the body position. We teach to square up to the target with the nose and toes pointed at it. We teach to put the gun on our centerline and to hold the gun parallel to the ground. This basic geometry is virtually “fool proof.” It is nearly impossible to not get hits when the basic body geometry is put into place.

It is my opinion, that there is another part of the basics that have been ignored by some of the old timers. I believe that this is done because most of the older books just deal with the absolute basics. Once you move outside of the basic body geometry and take the skills into fluid and dynamic FOF, you find that another very important basic piece of the puzzle comes into play. This would be the visual input of the eye/hand coordination equation. Enos and many other firearm instructors saw the importance of visual input to facilitate making the shot at varying distances, difficulty levels, and under time constraints. I firmly believe in the concept of integrating the old with the new to become the very best that you can be.

With that said, I firmly believe in the teaching of alternative sighting methods. These methods fall squarely into the “see what you need to see” concepts. By using gun focused skills such as, hard focus on the front sight, flash sight picture, front sight only, and threat focused skills such as type two focus, aligning down the slide, and metal and meat you are teaching your brain to see what it needs to see and laying a solid foundation for your eye/hand coordination and the seamless integration between eye/hand coordination shooting and sighted fire. As I have said many times, just having the knowledge of these alternative sighting methods, your brain will know which part of this information it will need to make the hits. That is what eye/hand coordination is all about.

Once we drop the gun to below line of sight, the visual input of the shot takes on a whole new meaning. We are now working with our peripheral vision outside of our cone of vision. Now once again, this is something that is completely ignored by some of the old timers, but let us face the facts. When it comes to eye/hand coordination, when your mind takes in the peripheral vision from the eyes, the mind will attempt to align the body/hand off of that information…… whether we want it to or not. That is simply the way that it works. To understand and accept this peripheral vision verification as fact is not a bad thing. It is a very good thing. This understanding and acceptance just leads to more confidence. When it comes to eye/hand coordination shooting…..confidence is the king!

As we push the movement continuum with our point shooting skills, we eliminate more and more of the basic body geometry to the point that it is almost non-existent. We can no longer rely on our centerline due to the fact that it is just too limiting to our movement options. We now have to work off our visual centerline with our eye/hand coordination. Now, any direction that we look gives us our basic geometry. Add to this our line of sight alternative indexing methods and our use of peripheral vision verification below line of sight and we have an amazingly versatile eye/hand coordination aiming system. This system is as simple as can be, works off of the subconscious mind under the typical physiological reactions to a life threatening encounter, and also has the advantage of absolutely excelling with dynamic movement.

A few hours of conscious thought and discovery will lead to a level of confidence in the subconscious minds ability that will truly amaze most people. Once you have put in this small amount of work at the conscious level, you will never have to visit this level again. You will have a full understanding of your eye/hand coordination. You will never again have to ask yourself what you need to see to get the hits. You will just instinctively get the hits that you need within the correct context of the fight.

And things will never be the same!

Remember this when you are really rocking and rolling “The gun looks a certain way and it feels a certain way.”

When you are doing really well, pay attention to the way the gun looks and the way the body feels. This will make it absolutely repeatable and will allow you to improve your hits.
 
#42 ·
Eye/hand Coordination, Confidence, and the Path to its Discovery and Refinement

Whatever you prefer to call it, point shooting, instinctive shooting, index shooting, reactive shooting, continuum shooting, blah, blah, blah does not matter at all. The bottom line is that it is the use or ones natural eye/hand coordination to puts hits onto a targeted area. It is the ability to make the bullets go to the exact point that your eyes are focused on, from any angle or any position. Eye/hand coordination is simply a teaming up of the mind, the body, and the eyes. The mind simply directs the body to align the gun so that the point of aim intersects the line of sight at the focal point. This is easy to understand, but not all that easy to make happen on your own.

We all know that the basics of point shooting has been broken down and taught into specific positions and stances (much like the four count draw stroke.). Now these “specifics” help facilitate in the teaching of basic point shooting and are a very important key to unlocking the door to your eye/hand coordination. But we need to understand that these are only the basics. It is my opinion, that if you were to stop here you have only glanced at 10% of this piece of the puzzle. To get the most out of point shooting you need to break away from this “basic breakdown.” Point shooting is not a stance, grip, position, or angle dependent skill set. It is a fluid, well rounded, and completely versatile concept.

But, the basics are the basics and they are a necessary part of the learning progression. When we look at the basics, we usually look at the basic geometry of the body position. We teach to square up to the target with the nose and toes pointed at it. We teach to put the gun on our centerline and to hold the gun parallel to the ground. This basic geometry is virtually “fool proof.” It is nearly impossible to not get hits when the basic body geometry is put into place.

It is my opinion, that there is another part of the basics that have been ignored by some of the old timers. I believe that this is done because most of the older books just deal with the absolute basics. Once you move outside of the basic body geometry and take the skills into fluid and dynamic FOF, you find that another very important basic piece of the puzzle comes into play. This would be the visual input of the eye/hand coordination equation. Enos and many other firearm instructors saw the importance of visual input to facilitate making the shot at varying distances, difficulty levels, and under time constraints. I firmly believe in the concept of integrating the old with the new to become the very best that you can be.

With that said, I firmly believe in the teaching of alternative sighting methods. These methods fall squarely into the “see what you need to see” concepts. By using gun focused skills such as, hard focus on the front sight, flash sight picture, front sight only, and threat focused skills such as type two focus, aligning down the slide, and metal and meat you are teaching your brain to see what it needs to see and laying a solid foundation for your eye/hand coordination and the seamless integration between eye/hand coordination shooting and sighted fire. As I have said many times, just having the knowledge of these alternative sighting methods, your brain will know which part of this information it will need to make the hits. That is what eye/hand coordination is all about.

Once we drop the gun to below line of sight, the visual input of the shot takes on a whole new meaning. We are now working with our peripheral vision outside of our cone of vision. Now once again, this is something that is completely ignored by some of the old timers, but let us face the facts. When it comes to eye/hand coordination, when your mind takes in the peripheral vision from the eyes, the mind will attempt to align the body/hand off of that information…… whether we want it to or not. That is simply the way that it works. To understand and accept this peripheral vision verification as fact is not a bad thing. It is a very good thing. This understanding and acceptance just leads to more confidence. When it comes to eye/hand coordination shooting…..confidence is the king!

As we push the movement continuum with our point shooting skills, we eliminate more and more of the basic body geometry to the point that it is almost non-existent. We can no longer rely on our centerline due to the fact that it is just too limiting to our movement options. We now have to work off our visual centerline with our eye/hand coordination. Now, any direction that we look gives us our basic geometry. Add to this our line of sight alternative indexing methods and our use of peripheral vision verification below line of sight and we have an amazingly versatile eye/hand coordination aiming system. This system is as simple as can be, works off of the subconscious mind under the typical physiological reactions to a life threatening encounter, and also has the advantage of absolutely excelling with dynamic movement.

A few hours of conscious thought and discovery will lead to a level of confidence in the subconscious minds ability that will truly amaze most people. Once you have put in this small amount of work at the conscious level, you will never have to visit this level again. You will have a full understanding of your eye/hand coordination. You will never again have to ask yourself what you need to see to get the hits. You will just instinctively get the hits that you need within the correct context of the fight.

And things will never be the same!

Remember this when you are really rocking and rolling “The gun looks a certain way and it feels a certain way.”

When you are doing really well, pay attention to the way the gun looks and the way the body feels. This will make it absolutely repeatable and will allow you to improve your hits.
Very well put.

A few comments of my own......

Under the stress of a fight you will perform through following pre-developed muscle memory that you won't have to think about. In other words, you will do whatever you train yourself to do within the limitations of your own physiological reactions to the stress.

Do consider that you may be moving, your intended target will probably be moving and there will be things and people around that you do not want to shoot. There really is no such thing as a miss, only a hit on an unintentional target.

As such, some sort of visual reference really is important when pulling the trigger. It will rarely be what marksmanship instructors would define as "sight picture" but it needs to be enough to assure hits.

On your last post: ratshot for a defense load out of a handgun is probably not the best option. It really bleeds off velocity quickly.

The goal of any defensive engagement should be to neutralize the attacker, which can typically best be accomplished in a timely manner by interrupting the supply of oxygen to the brain and the brain's connection to the body through impact damage to the respiratory, circulatory and central nervous systems.

There's a much slimmer chance of accomplishing this with a .38 shotshell than there is with a real bullet.

#4 Buckshot on the other hand....really effective. Even more so than 00 Buck at close range. If you'll be shooting all under 7 yards, there's probably no need for the 00 Buck. #4 Buckshot is much less likely to punch through to a lot of other rooms or buildings as well. Great round for home defense in a condo or apartment.

Good luck!
 
#32 ·
This a great thread, would lots of good advice and info. I would like to weigh in my tcw if I may. Back when I was a kid, my grandfather killed squirrels and rabbits on the run with a 22 without using sights. I used to watch him shoot ariel targets such as small flat creek rocks, quarters and just about anything with his rifle. I even watched him shoot bats out of the sky with his 22, as well as crows in flight. It always amazed everyone. Anyway, as I spent time with him, I got to the place, under his instruction where I could hit small rocks thrown into the air. Several years ago, I traded my compound bow for a traditional bow to make things more challenging, so I had to learn to shoot instinctivly. I am now at the place where I feel confident and consistent to take shots within traditional bow effect range. I am now applying the same techniques to my defensive handgun skills. It is amazing how the same rules apply for each discipline. One thing that is absolutley factual, is once you develop that hand eye coordination, you must practice consistantly to maintain it. Anyway, great thread just had to share.
 
#33 ·
Welcome glockman--glad this thread is alive and well since I was disappointed when the first point shoot thread got pulled by the moderator. Hey Bill MO: I apologize for your need to reexplain your point (no pun intended) on paper dinner plates--I have used them but I just like that instant awareness that the big green dots make on the shoot NC targets. Thanks sweat for a very interesting reply--I'll have to read it again so it can sink into my old brain.
 
#34 ·
Thanks sweat for a very interesting reply--I'll have to read it again so it can sink into my old brain.
The deeper your understanding the better your accuracy will be.

Advanced point shooting application is not just a pattern. It is not just "point your finger" and it is not just "punch the gun out." If you want to know how to do it really well there needs to be some understanding on the best way that your body works. To say "use eye/hand cordination" and then not use your eyes makes no sense.

Your accuracy problem at five yards is not something that I see in my classes. You simply must not be using your visual input of the eye/hand coordination equation. In my course we are getting that accuracy out to 17 yards......one handed. That is after only about four hours of training. We push it out that far purely for confidence reasons.

You also may be point shooting at a blob.....instead of point shooting at a point. You need to have a focal point (the size of a dime or so) where you "drive" the gun to.

"Aim small, miss small" very much applies. Lock in on your focal point.

Point shooting at a blob does not work, you must point shoot at a point.

(1) Focal point, focal point, focal point! The bullets go where the eyes go.

(2) Do not shoot in a pattern. You must see what you need to see. Visual input is very important to being the best that you can be.

(3) Have a good "point." The proper grip, stance, and draw sroke should allow you to "drive" the gun to the focal point and be 95% there. The use of the sights is nothing more than a final 5% verification of an already accurate aim.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top