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Not my job

10K views 156 replies 54 participants last post by  kpw 
#1 ·
I hear a lot of talk about "Rights" on these forums, but very little about duties and obligations. So I wanted to share this with all those who insist that standing up doing the right thing in the face of evil is not their job. Some go as far as being insulting making disparaging remarks about those that do stand up to stop an assault, robbery, rape or murder. There are those who proudly advocate running and hiding as if that is the honorable thing to do, again insulting anyone who would do otherwise. Remember all the snide insults thrown at Joe Horn when he stood up for his neighbors property. Not just by the media and Al Sharpton but by many on these boards as well.

I was raised differently. I was taught we are all citizens of a community and a nation. As citizens we have duties and obligations to each other. Being an American is not just about rights and privileges we are entitled to but also about responsibilities, duties and obligations to each other. Looking out for each other is our job, not the governments. Liberty and Freedom are not free.


Would be warriors in waiting Getting help when you need it
Sir Robert Peel, “The Father of Modern Policing.” proclaimed, “...the police are the public and the public are the police: the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full-time attention to duties, which are incumbent upon every citizen in the interest of community welfare and existence.”

A History of Citizen Assistance
In 1966, on the University of Austin Campus there was a citizen, who assisted Ramiro Martinez and Houston McCoy, when they confronted Charles Whitman, the tower sniper.

In 1970 a citizen picked up one of the four downed officers’ guns and drove off their attackers with gun fire in Newhall California, where those four officers died.

There were citizens who assisted — and even gave their lives — alongside police officers and fire fighters at the World Trade Center on September 11th.

In 2007, inside a Wendy’s in Salt Lake City Eric Fullerton, a Vietnam Veteran and former member of the 101st Airborne Division disarmed and restrained a vicious cop killer and held him until officers arrived to arrest the suspect.
Obviously the article is talking about the REQUIREMENT of citizens to aid police when asked to do so. I of course am asserting that we are also REQUIRED to act in defense of others. If not by law than my moral obligation, national duty and honor, if being an American is to mean anything. That is what has always made America Great because we have, the best people on earth. Yes, we ARE better than the rest if we live up to what it is to be an American.

This me first. Standing by doing nothing, let the government police handle it IS what has brought this nation to where are today. WE, you and I are the ones responsible for the increasingly oppressive government and rampant crime that identifies our country today. Doing nothing makes us complicit in the crime and loss of liberty. The criminal depends upon citizens to aid and abet them by doing nothing. The government depends upon citizens wanting to be taken care of protected to justify stripping us of our liberties and rights.

Martin Luther King, Jr once said
Martin Luther King said:
"Cowardice asks the question, 'Is it safe?' Expediency asks the question, 'Is it politic?' Vanity asks the question, 'Is it popular?' But, conscience asks the question, 'Is it right?'

And there comes a time when one must take a position that is neither safe, nor politic, nor popular but one must take it because... one's conscience tells one that it is right."
So when you see an evil act being committed before running away and hiding consider is it REALLY the RIGHT thing to do. Is it how you would want others to act if it was your wife, mother or daughter being victimized. Even that bone headed neighbor is an American and deserves to be treated with respect not only by the government but even more so by each of us.
 
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#2 ·
It depends on the price you want (or would have) to pay for involvement. Some prices are higher than others. Some, people are willing to pay. Others, people are not.

To condemn for not doing is no better and no worse than to condemn for doing.
 
#3 ·
That's all fine and good but who's going to pay for my legal fees? The community might be all supportive when you save them from a mass murderer but when his family sues where are they for cash support?
Will they share the jail cell with you or be there with you when you fill out an application or do a back ground check? I doubt it. People forget too quick now.
I think people would be better off educating the masses how to not be victims and defend themselves vs taking it upon themselves to defend them and save them from being victims.

That being said every situation has its merits and it's easy to sit behind a keyboard and rationalize a situation till someone is being raped and beaten by a few thugs in front of you.
 
#12 ·
Justified SD, whether for you or another party, is protected from civil suits in FL. You should know that.
 
#4 ·
If we lived in a perfect world where good will was rewarded then maybe intervening would be a better idea. Sadly we don't, and instead people trying to help out get thrown in jail or sued for everything they're worth. Once there was a deputy here where I live pulling a man over. The man got out of the car and started attacking the deputy. Some other guy decided to help so he fired his shotgun in the air and the dude hit the deck. After arresting the first dude the second dude was also arrested for illegal discharge of a firearm.
 
#5 ·
OP, I have to agree with you for the most part.

Call it due to my upbringing or military service, but I don't think I could stand by when a person's life is in danger, given there's a resonable expectation of suceeding in assisting. Being nothing but a "good witness" isn't helping the individual in need. Nothing sets me off more than these news reports of someone being beaten/murdered when the crowd does nothing--other than whip out cell phones for pictures to post on youtube.

The "all about me" attitudes and fear of litigation has turned us into an insensitive society. It's so easy to not get involved.

Each of us has to make our own decisions--and we have to live with them afterwards. Make a decision; live with the consequences.
 
#6 ·
#28 ·
I liked this part:

"Rather I would seek cover and carefully evaluate the totality of the circumstance. When I was convinced I knew what is really going on I would respond with the minimum amount of force necessary whether that required drawing my cell phone or my pistol. If all we have is a pistol we have severely limited options. I carry three pistols, oc, cell phone, and a flashlight, and I am a PPCT Defensive Tactics Instructor. I am willing and trained to respond with the appropriate level of force even if that is “only” a command voice. I understand the force continuum and know what the appropriate level force is in a given situation. Ignorance of such critical parameters can have horrific consequences.

Those who think the mere display of a weapon will stop hostilities are naïve in the extreme. The same people we will be confronting know what an appropriate level of force is and when we make outlandish or unjustified threats we’ll show our true colors. These people can tell when we’re serious and we will quickly find ourselves disarmed and in real trouble."

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IMO, most people on here dont seem to realize that the moment they draw their gun...ALL dynamics in the situation change. Bystanders may react, may give you away. Plainclothes cops may be there and see only part of the equation. YOU may not understand the actual situation (like the scenario where the father drags the misbehaving teen into his car), there may be unseen accomplices, etc.

For me to get involved with my gun, there still must be clear understanding of situation, ID of target(s), and minimal risk to bystanders including backdrop. Quick draw/shoot is not a likely situation I will ever be in. If so, since I dont have the CQB skills (yet) or believe that I can outdraw someone with their gun already pointed at me...or the attitude that I'd rather die than give up my purse just to be 'right,' I will likely take my chances without drawing.

I've handled most situations in life (and there have been many over 50 yrs) without a gun and I plan to continue to do so. My gun is to protect me and that is what I practice. If there are clear situations where I can help, I will. I have always been someone who responded to accidents, calls for help, did first aid, etc. I have the training and I use it.

I think people should act according to their ethics and their level of training. And realize that no matter what, you may still lose your house.
 
#8 ·
I
Obviously the article is talking about the REQUIREMENT of citizens to aid police when asked to do so. I of course am asserting that we are also REQUIRED to act in defense of others. If not by law than my moral obligation, national duty and honor, if being an American is to mean anything. That is what has always made America Great because we have, the best people on earth. Yes, we ARE better than the rest if we live up to what it is to be an American.
Not all people see their moral obligations the same way. Also honor, seriously, I don’t think avoiding a rash life altering decision because you do not have all the facts is anti honor. Honestly I have not interest in getting in a mostly bank breaking decision that I don’t know the details to.
 
#9 ·
While I have advocated not doing anything, and interceding, both; all situations are unique.

I'm not going to wait for a situation to develop, especially if the situation is not clear.

I fully beleive it is my moral duty to get involved if I am in a position to do so. I will not do so if I put people at risk of further danger. But there are many variables. Each case is different.

I am not going to shoot at fleeing suspects who have just run off from a cel phone store with a couple of phones...
If I walk into a drugstore and there is a gunman waving a shotgun around, I'm probably going to engage.
If I walk into a store late at night and some "oddie" is wandering around the store not doing anything but being peculiar... I'm not jumping in... there could be some other dynamic occuring of which I am unaware.

Each case is different (I know, I already said that).

Based on the scenarios presented here, I give my best considered response based on the scenario outlined. I may do the complete opposite IRL... I may not.

This interwebby thing brings alot of folk together, some here may not have a PCW (CCW, what have you) but say they'd take out all the BG's with no compunction, and carry on like nothing happened. Some give considered responses based on experience or training. Some run into the nearest phonebooth to change into their superhero outfits...

I look at the scenarios presented, try to learn from them, consider them, and post what I beleive my actions would be. If I am unsure, I don't post.

But the OP has no right to judge anyone here for stated possible actions that may or may not actualy be taken IRL.
 
#10 ·
I'd be more worried about going hole and telling my wife and kids what I saw and telling them I was a good witness......of a beating, rape or murder. I don't know about anyone else, and I don't care, but I surely wouldn't be too proud to tell them I did nothing. I come from a family of attorneys, so I understand the "civil" liabilities argument. I guess living in a free state that protects us from that in a clean shoot has aided in my opinion.

This should go without saying, but apparently here we need to do so - I would only get involved if my not getting involved would lead to the death or great bodily harm of another. Not when it's over and I shoot him in the back, even that thought is ridiculous - as I feel having to say it, but if I don't......
 
#11 ·
I have asked how could I stand by and watch another human get killed or seriously harmed in front of me and a lot of responses where "you are not the police" "be a good witness" "you don't know all the facts"

Not that long ago a local man ran into a store, stabbed a woman and ran away. When I commented on the story online and said I would have been nothing but a good witness I was called a liberal and a coward.

The line for helping is so thin it is scary. As others have said you most likely will get sued if you do step in but if you don't then you are labeled something else.

I think we need to stop the frivolous law suits and allow those that do step in greater protection but at the current time we do not have that so at this moment I'm going to go with run away, hide and become a good witness. I don't have a lot and don't need the little I do have taken away by some idiot who committed a crime and now they want to sue me for helping out a fellow human.
 
#15 ·
I have asked how could I stand by and watch another human get killed or seriously harmed in front of me and a lot of responses where "you are not the police" "be a good witness" "you don't know all the facts"

Not that long ago a local man ran into a store, stabbed a woman and ran away. When I commented on the story online and said I would have been nothing but a good witness I was called a liberal and a coward.

The line for helping is so thin it is scary. As others have said you most likely will get sued if you do step in but if you don't then you are labeled something else.

I think we need to stop the frivolous law suits and allow those that do step in greater protection but at the current time we do not have that so at this moment I'm going to go with run away, hide and become a good witness. I don't have a lot and don't need the little I do have taken away by some idiot who committed a crime and now they want to sue me for helping out a fellow human.
No, having a CW license doesn't make us LEOs. If you could have prevented the attack by using your firearm, that would most likely been a justified SD. I say likely due to the many variences in state laws. Once the BG had committed the assault and turned to flee, it would not be correct for you to use deadly force as the attack is over.

Do most good samaritans get sued? I doubt it. I imagine if truth be told, it's probably more of a rarity. And then how many actually lose? Fewer yet? I refuse to live my life in fear of BGs or lawyers.
 
#14 ·
They can have it, I'm living on credit anyway! It's a joke.....
 
#16 ·
You can call me all the names you want, as I don't much care. I've probably been called worse.

Unless you are affecting me and mine, I seriously doubt that I will intervene with a firearm. You can play the "what if it was" game all night, I don't much care. I won't ask for someone to step in and assume responsibiliries for myself or a loved one, that I won't assume.

Biker
 
#19 ·
I believe that I'm in your camp for a number of reasons.:yup:
It's a jungle out there, be very careful.
 
#18 ·
An interesting thread , to be sure.

A variety of opinions, somewhat based on the perception of each of the variety of risks involved in intervention in various types of situations. Morals, risk, values, honor, jeopardy, duty and more, each interpreted by each individual usually based on the combination of factors that make up their life. Unfortunately the consequences of a decision usually lie after the conclusion of the chosen action rather rather than prior to its implemetation.

Personally, I may not agree with your decision, but I do not judge it and I expect the same in return. Beyond explainations of how and why, etc, to some degree as enlightenment for the uninitiated of the various factors involved, any further interaction usually only results in wet shoes for all parties involved.

I will ride my horse, you ride yours. I may choose to gallop and you choose to walk. Beyond a brief discussion of the benefits and hazards of each action and the techniques involved, further is just self righteous wind regardless of which direction it initiates from.

I do not like to be told what I should do and for that reason I try not to tell other people what they should do.
 
#20 ·
At heart, I generally agree with the sentiment of this post. The now-standard American trope of "I don't want to get involved" is a shame on our national honor. Fear of litigation should not emasculate the instinct to protect and defend those in harm's way. Know yourself, know your skills, know the law and act accordingly.
 
#21 ·
Now, with my comments about helping out, I should add if it's some tweaker getting a beating, I'd be much less inclined to help than if it was an elderly woman getting assaulted. I wouldn't just go guns blazin' because something looks off either. But I doubt very highly that if any of us were out on a walk, for example, and came upon a teenage girl being assaulted by a couple dirtbags we'd just call 911 and watch to be a "good witness".
 
#22 ·
This is exactly how I feel. I have always thought I'd just have to make that decision based on the situation. I don't have a lot of sympathy for those that PUT themselves in bad situations, or allow themselves to get into situations. But if it were a purely innocent defenseless person, facing grave bodily harm, out of no act of their own, I think I'd be forced to act. Maybe with a cell phone, maybe with more if the situation required it. It also depends on whether I had other people such as family members to worry about close by.
 
#23 ·
" But I doubt very highly that if any of us were out on a walk, for example, and came upon a teenage girl being assaulted by a couple dirtbags we'd just call 911 and watch to be a "good witness"."

Actually, that's exactly the position many have taken in this thread.

It's not my job to tell another the right way to live their life. When we read a story in newspaper about a savage criminal, and we talk about what a terrible person that individual is, judging that savage is okay, we can all agree on that.
So judging the actions of others is both human nature, and to be expected.
Judge me a fool for risking money or safety to help a stranger. I won't use the language here to describe how I judge those that run away, hide, and take videos.
What a pathetic comment on the nature of the individual who won't help those who can't help themselves.
 
#25 · (Edited)
"But if it were a purely innocent defenseless person, facing grave bodily harm, out of no act of their own, I think I'd be forced to act. Maybe with a cell phone, maybe with more if the situation required it."

No you didn't say you might be forced to act with a cell phone. How could an innocent person being facing grave harm merit a cell call response? How does that even get into the equation?
Make sure it's after 7pm, so you get free nights and weekend minutes.

Do you all know why we have a right to carry? The 2nd. We can agree we, adult citizens in good standing, are the militia. We, the militia, are granted the Constitutional right to be armed, to protect the security of a free state. From what? From tyranny. From enemies both outside, and within. And tyranny is not restricted to tyranny from government. Tyranny comes in the form of aggressors in all forms. That includes the thug in the convenience store, and the hoodlum beating up on a stranger at a bus stop. You're all so pleased to have the 2A right to carry protected by the Constitution, but hide from the responsibility required of you in the 2nd Amendment. By that measure, which is clear and indisputable, your right to carry is not protected, due to your deficiency in meeting the stipulations of 2A.
 
#74 ·
You're all so pleased to have the 2A right to carry protected by the Constitution, but hide from the responsibility required of you in the 2nd Amendment. By that measure, which is clear and indisputable, your right to carry is not protected, due to your deficiency in meeting the stipulations of 2A.
Wow...ok...umm...are you new to carrying? Because you sound a little too gung ho...like someone who thinks a gun is always the answer. Thinking THEN acting is the answer. Are you willing to sacrifice your family and your ability to take care of them should you put yourself in a position where you take someone's life? Does your family know this? Seriously...

Have you really researched defensive shootings whereby it wasn't a textbook, clear case of self-defense? The aftermath of a shooting, the legal aspects and costs of a defense? I highly recommend research...because your position appears to be one of ignorance.

And I recommend you do more reading and less posting, so as you understand the community you are a member of, and who makes up this community.

v/r
 
#26 ·
Tyranny comes in the form of aggressors in all forms. That includes the thug in the convenience store, and the hoodlum beating up on a stranger at a bus stop.
But does not that stranger at the bus stop have the same right to seek safety prior to the act that I did?

If that stranger was foolish enough to not be concerned who am I to assume the mantle of protection for him? It was his responsibility, and he ignored it, thus he should pay the price for doing so. Sometimes the price is high, sometimes it's not.

I watched on interesting television show on ABC the other night titled, "What Would You Do?" If anyone saw the scene where the teenagers were beating the transient with a bat, think how that would've gone if someone with a gun had intervened. All the requirements for the use of deadly force were there, Ability, Opportunity, and Jeopardy. Now try and extricate yourself from that predicament.

As I grow older, and see the folly of helping others, I am less inclined to involve myself in their situations.

Biker
 
#27 ·
First let me state that this post isn’t directed at any one person in particular and that I am speaking in very broad and general terms.

One of the most common needs that people have is the need to feel important. We want to know that people respect us. I believe that a good number of people that carry concealed handguns get their feelings of being important from the fact that they are carrying a hand gun. I also believe that there are people participating in this forum that strap up every day and pray to God that today is the day they become the next Jeanne Assam. I also believe that some of them justify this fantasy to themselves by buying into the idea that we’re somehow morally obligated to intervene on another’s behalf just because we’re armed.

If the police are under no obligation to protect individuals I certainly am not.

If I take on bad guys and I get injured or killed my family doesn't get a state pension or a worker's comp settlement to pay my bills. I don’t have the resources of the city behind me to help W/ my legal expenses should I get sued.

I’m sorry. Maybe there’s something lacking in my character Maybe I’m a wolf But I don’t feel any moral obligation to risk myself on your behalf and I’m most likely not going to.
 
#49 ·
I believe that a good number of people that carry concealed handguns get their feelings of being important from the fact that they are carrying a hand gun. I also believe that there are people participating in this forum that strap up every day and pray to God that today is the day they become the next Jeanne Assam. I also believe that some of them justify this fantasy to themselves by buying into the idea that we’re somehow morally obligated to intervene on another’s behalf just because we’re armed.
There are people in my neighborhood who have said that they HOPE someone breaks into their home so they can shoot them. Like you say..a justified fantasy come true. I have seen people proudly display their gun openly in a public place for no other reason that it made them feel "important". I have questioned why anyone would want to walk around with an open carry even if the law allowed it. It certainly has a certain shock valve bringing them to the center of attention. "Look at me, I have a gun and you don't" type of attitude. They seem to enjoy it when someone asks..."are you a cop?" Their self image gets boosted when they are able to intimidate those who are afraid of guns.

The ONLY reason for carrying a gun is for self protection. A gun should not be used to inflate your sense of power and self importance.
 
#30 ·
Another good part of the article from stoppingpower.net:

I carry a gun to protect myself and the people I love from the Monsters that roam the earth. When I’m away from those that mean everything to me, I carry so I can return to them. Are there circumstances where I would intervene to help a stranger? Yes, but such intervention would be on my terms at my pace. I am not going to jump into a situation with gun drawn.
"Getting involved" can be something as subtle as stopping and paying attention, it might be a verbal command or question, might be just a matter of where you position yourself. Being armed doesn't mean you have to intervene, but there is a very specific sort of situation where turning your back and ignoring a person suffering an injustice is an act of moral turpitude. In such cases, from an existential standpoint it's harder to not intervene.

Also, remember the "bystander effect" from Psych 101. You know, where a person stands on a streetcorner looking up, and pretty soon there's a crowd standing around doing the same thing? Disinhibition is part of the scale of normative behaviors; people take their cues on how to act from watching other people. When one person steps forward and yells, "Hey, you! Stop that!" he or she encourages others to do likewise. To "en-courage," to give heart and bravery to others.

In the same way, if a man is being viciously mugged by a thug on the street and the people who witness it see you lower your head, try to play invisible and scurry away hoping you won't be noticed, that signals to all others who see you that this is the correct response: pretend it's not happening. Too bad for the victim. Be glad it isn't you. Instead of a crowd rushing to help, we get Cabrini Green again. The actions you make determine the course of reality. Choose wisely.
 
#31 ·
If that stranger was foolish enough to not be concerned who am I to assume the mantle of protection for him? It was his responsibility, and he ignored it, thus he should pay the price for doing so. Sometimes the price is high, sometimes it's not.
So in other words. if you are foolish enough to get caught off guard.....you don't want anyone to come help you out? because that would be hypocritical otherwise
 
#34 ·
So in other words. if you are foolish enough to get caught off guard.....you don't want anyone to come help you out
I certainly wouldn't expect it and I'd be amazed if it happened
 
#32 ·
It is like the old adage coming out of the Supreme Court on pornography. "You WILL know it when you see it". In SC we have the alter ego rule, which loosely refers to the idea that if you see an act of violence perpetrated on someone else and IF it were you instead of them would you feel that you would have been in imminent danger of great bodily injury or death. Keeping that in mind, "you will know it when you see it". The only problem is that you can never be certain of what is truly going on in other peoples' activities and affairs and your decision had better be based on an absolute of "imminent danger of great bodily injury or death" and nothing else.
 
#33 ·
The only problem is that you can never be certain of what is truly going on in other peoples' activities and affairs and your decision had better be based on an absolute of "imminent danger of great bodily injury or death" and nothing else.
How about you spot some punk kids breaking car windows on your block? There are no specific Do's and Don'ts regarding when you ought to step up to guard your neighborhood or community. Extreme caution is warranted when a man and woman, or an adult and a child, appear to be having some kind of conflict. LEOs are often at grave risk when entering domestic disputes, and the record is very clear on that. I think that "don't be an idiot" is the guiding rule.
 
#35 ·
But what about those that are forced to think about the financial repercussions of stepping in? Or impact to their family? Or possible jail time cause they can't afford a lawyer? Life is so much more complicated these days.

This applies to me; I can't afford a lawyer. I'd protect myself or family but would have to think twice before doing so for others. If the likely hood of legal involvement weren't so high then I'd have less fear of lending a hand.

I've struggled with it as I'm inclined to help but.. there are so many but's. It is what it is ... and it sucks.
 
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