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Deciding when to stand and fight

4K views 56 replies 37 participants last post by  BugDude 
#1 ·
I have seen several threads lately where the issue of when to take a stand has been raised. I feel this is a critical aspect of understanding the responsibilities one has as a concealed carrier.

Manging one's temper and avoiding situations that can escalate into a fight is far more important than what caliber hollow-point you carry.

"For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill."
~~Sun Tzu

I much prefer to fight my battles by proxy. This may not sound "manly" to many posters here, but it is certainly much safer for me and my family. I know when I get the feeling that I want to puff out my chest, make a rude hand gesture, or call someone names, I need to find a proxy.

I see situations that end up in a fight or, worse, a gunfight, and wonder how else it could have been handled. Even drug dealers are smart enough to find arrogant "tough guys" to actually sell the product for them (their proxy), so they can avoid the dangers that come with defending a sales territory - the most dangerous aspect of the black market.

Why fight with your neighbor if you can invoke a proxy that you've already paid for with your taxes? Use the legal system or law enforcement.

Why be confrontational with coworkers when you can solicit support from other colleagues and use the management chain to deal with your concerns?

Why confront a neighbor on your property or your porch when can call 911 from the safety of your home?

Why confront strangers with the ubiquitous "What's your problem?" attitude when you can quietly slip away?

I even used a proxy in a potential bar fight a few years ago. I was in the Caribbean drinking with some buddies, and one of the group managed to get himself entangled in a tough guy contest with a couple of huge palookas. He was motioning for us to come bail him out. Yes, he was dumb enough to think I was going to risk a beat-down because of his mouth.

I simply asked for the bar manager, showed him our large bar bill, and said I wanted to settle up - leaving a $100 tip. He and a couple bartenders marched over and promptly tossed out the two big palookas and escorted us out to make an escape.

My buddy asked why I didn't come to his rescue. I said, "I did. I sent the manager. I'm sure as heck not going to risk a beating because you're a fool."

He asked, "What if they wouldn't intervene?"

I replied, "I would have called you an ambulance."

"Be extremely subtle, even to the point of formlessness. Be extremely mysterious, even to the point of soundlessness. Thereby you can be the director of the opponent's fate."
~~Sun Tzu

You may feel cocky because you tote a handgun under your shirt, but it's not a good replacement for avoiding the fight in the first place.
 
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#2 ·
Sun Tzu's The Art of War is a book everyone should read even if you don't carry a gun. I've read it probably 4 or 5 times in the last 15 years. I've tried to incorporate a lot of his philosophy in my everyday life. He imparts a philosophy which works every bit as well in business and everyday life as it does to war and conflict.
 
#24 ·
I've listened to "Coward of the County" a couple hundred times.....Does that count??:smile:


Pretty cut and dried.... "I walk away when I can....."
 
#3 ·
Because not every situation can be solved civily...most of the time, when bad things happen, the bad guy gets a vote and we are reacting to what he/she does. While I agree with the point of your post, the reality is, not everyone is civil. That said, I am not advocating vigilatism--I agree you should use the resources available to you--but I believe most of us carry when our life is threatened and calling a "time out" is not an option.
 
#5 ·
I frequently remind myself that:
[1] I'm not the only person that carries a gun, or other deadly weapon;
[2] Many people are on prescription drugs that alter their 'good judgement';
[3] Many people are on illicit drugs that alter their 'good judgement';
[4] Many violent criminals have been released into the general population by the judicial system;
[5] Many impaired individuals have been released into the general population by 'mental' institutions;
. . [etc, etc,]

I never know who the other guy is - who I'm dealing with. Seems stupid to escalate a situation from 'social' posturing into asocial violence without considering the risks of totally loosin' it. I'm not going to put my life on the line just to prove who has the most testosterone. I'll defend my life with extreme prejudice should the need arise -otherwise I'm not engaging.
 
#8 ·
Most people looking for a fight either have no idea what they are really looking for because most 'fights' are social hierarchy BS taken to a physical level. People who fight probably don't want to kill the person they are fighting with - just put them in their place.

I have no account with those people, so long as they don't blunder into a situation were that idea of how to effect social dominance runs into my idea of a threat.

RE: Proxy warfare...read "The Prince" & "How to win friends and influnece people"
 
#9 · (Edited)
I agree completely that the best option is to do your best to avoid the fight if at all possible. Sometimes the ONLY option is to fight, if and when you get there, fight with everything you have. Don't fight fair, aim to kill. Sometimes that is the only thing that will work.
Become good at letting what others say roll off un-noticed, words are not worth a fight. Let people say what they will, the vast majority will stop at words. For those who force you into the fight...Become their worst nightmare.
 
#13 ·
"For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill."
~~Sun Tzu
OH YEAH? says WHO?

I have won every single fight I have ever had!



Come to think of it, I've never been in a fight!
(sigh) Such is war.
 
#15 ·
One question I like to ask for any of these scenerios is: If you didn't have a gun, would you have the same response? Too many, I feel, become involved or react a certain way only because they are armed, rather than using the firearm as a last resort.
 
#16 ·
OldVet has sussed out the fundamental motivation for my thread. Almost all the posts here are on developing a pistol-fighting capability. I think more time should be given toward understanding the grave responsibilities or carrying a weapon, as well as the ramifications of its use.

IMHO, we spend far too much time here discussing the "how", and far too little time discussing the "why".
 
#18 ·
You can avoid the fight at all costs, but that's martydom. The final cost of avoiding a fight is your life :dead: . And, I know you didn't mean it to that extent. But giving ground isn't an answer either... see: Compliance doesn't work: Link.

Generally, I am not of the "stand your ground" mindset, but I have no desire to give in either. I believe in life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. The pursuit of happiness may lead me to places that are less "safe" than an avoidance mindset would allow me to go.

That said, some situations (or scenarios presented here) do not offer the option of retreat. If safe retreat is an option I will take it... if cautious, defended retreat is a viable possibility, I may take that. Each situation is different, of course.

Avoidance is ideal, but avoidance of risk entails diminishing the enjoyment of the variety of life. Lance Thomas is a perfect example of someone who has done both (stood his ground AND total avoidance). Standing his ground eventually came to the point of diminishing returns, and finally forced him into seclusion.

Avoiding a fight at all costs might as well be severe agoraphobia.

Once a situation has become a reality, there are many things I might do to escape the situation safely. But each situation is completely different.
 
#20 ·
Go out of your way to avoid a confortation. I'm the last person to have road rage now that I carry.

If by chance I'm confronted now, before I would draw a pistol I think of Disparity of Force.
 
#25 ·
What I have done, and it takes a LOT of practice, is to step back and think about what you say and how you react in a potentially heated situation. Being born with a temper, it has taken me years to control it and believe it or not, it only came out if someone threatened my family or I. Otherwise I could watch a barroom brawl burn itself out and pick up the pieces afterwards, chuckling the entire time. My practice was/is done in everyday, non threatening situations that at best might result in everyone making an a$$ of themselves. It's totally amazing how you can control a situation once you isolate yourself from it. Pulling that weapon is the LAST thing I ever want to do.
 
#26 ·
Situations that would legally allow you to use your weapon are situations that you could only avoid by not being there in the first place.

I'm also in agreement with SIGUY229 that to believe the other person(s) are as rational as you, could prove to be a fatal mistake.
 
#30 ·
I stay out of potentially bad places...using common sense here.
I'm going to avoid all confrontations, at all costs.
Trap me in a parking lot and I will not play fairly.
I'm too old for a fight...old men don't like to fight...don't pick on old men.
Picking this old guy for a victim may be your unlucky day...I'm just sayin', I'm too old to fight, so...:rolleyes:
 
#33 ·
I have the knowledge, ability, and skills to fight.
I have the knowledge, ability, and skills to shoot.
I have the WISDOM to avoid both unless the situation dictates it shouldn't be avoided...and the wisdom to determine when such a situation does or does not exist.

Technical knowledge can be easily obtained with education.
Technical ability can be easily obtained with practice.
Widsom is usually obtained "the hard way."

Good judgement comes from experience...and a lot of that comes from exercising bad judgement.
 
#34 ·
OP : to me , it sounds like you constantly use others to protect yourself or resolve issues for you. They 'escort the two out".... doesn't mean someone is not in potential harms way, due to your buddy or you getting your buddy to shut his mouth.

I don't agree that we need to act like 'mice' and be polite to someone who's a threat. In fact, some people will "feed" on your reaction and see you as a person that they can take advantage of and a potential victim.

Guns, are not there to resolve feuds, arguments, debates, confrontations, etc. ... that's NOT what they are for. They are there to protect ourselves from an attack or threat on our lives. You didn't list any that I think fell into that category.

Why be confrontational with coworkers when you can solicit support from other colleagues and use the management chain to deal with your concerns?
.
That's called back-stabbing where I live.... and not highly respected by the bosses either. I know I"m not there to solve all of my employees issues, or to put up with those types of games either. If I had someone doing that, I would probably be looking for a means to get rid of them.
 
#35 ·
OP : to me , it sounds like you constantly use others to protect yourself or resolve issues for you. They 'escort the two out".... doesn't mean someone is not in potential harms way, due to your buddy or you getting your buddy to shut his mouth.

I don't agree that we need to act like 'mice' and be polite to someone who's a threat. In fact, some people will "feed" on your reaction and see you as a person that they can take advantage of and a potential victim.

Guns, are not there to resolve feuds, arguments, debates, confrontations, etc. ... that's NOT what they are for. They are there to protect ourselves from an attack or threat on our lives. You didn't list any that I think fell into that category.

.
That's called back-stabbing where I live.... and not highly respected by the bosses either. I know I"m not there to solve all of my employees issues, or to put up with those types of games either. If I had someone doing that, I would probably be looking for a means to get rid of them.
:35::35::35::35:
 
#36 ·
I've always liked the quote
"To survive you don't have to stand tall, but you Have to Stand Up."
To me that means, Avoid the confrontation IF you can,
if/when you can't, be rational in trying to defuse the level of conflict,
but if/when the circumstances (happens too fast, the other guy opens the ball with violence etc.)
your Primary motivation Must Be to Survive, even if that means the use of Deadly Force.
If you are not willing to use deadly force as a Last Resort Effort to survive (and that includes Protecting who or what is yours to protect) you shouldn't be carrying.
Likewise, if you're not willing to make that use your LAST resort, instead of your first the odds of you being "Judged by 12 instead of carried by 6" are going to be greater.
My advice (for what it's worth) is simple to give.
Decide, for yourself, what you are willing to give up to not have to shoot. If what's on the table AT THAT TIME is more than that, you'll react, and then deal with the consequences, alive.

None of this is about being a Mall Ninja or backup cop protecting society.
It's about you and yours Surviving.

If you ever do have to shoot,
you'll second guess yourself for years about if you could have done it different.
But, that's something you'll be able to do at leisure.
Instead of the alternative.

The night sweats are better than attending the funeral.
 
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