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Mall Parking Lot posting (WI)

9K views 50 replies 32 participants last post by  Gary Slider 
#1 ·
The Bay Park Square Mall in the Green Bay area has recently put up 12" X 18" signs at all of the parking lot entrances stating that weapons are not allowed on the property. As of today, there are no signs posted on the store entrances themselves.

I am curious as to how the WI law pertains to this, it seems to be a legal posting but I'm looking for opinions by others that might be a little more knowledgeable on the law.

Here is a snippet from Section 82 of the WI law:
"b. For the purposes of sub. (1m) (c) 2., an owner or
occupant of the grounds of a nonresidential building or of
land has notified an individual not to enter or remain on
the grounds or land while carrying a firearm or with a particular type of firearm if the owner or occupant has posted
a sign that is located in a prominent place near all probable access points to the grounds or land to which the
restriction applies and any individual entering the
grounds or land can be reasonably expected to see the
sign"
 
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#2 ·
I would not want to be the test case for this. Looks like a legal posting and I would simply take my $$$ elsewhere.
 
#3 ·
The Bay Park Square Mall in the Green Bay area has recently put up 12" X 18" signs at all of the parking lot entrances stating that weapons are not allowed on the property. As of today, there are no signs posted on the store entrances themselves.

I am curious as to how the WI law pertains to this, it seems to be a legal posting but I'm looking for opinions by others that might be a little more knowledgeable on the law.

Here is a snippet from Section 82 of the WI law:
"b. For the purposes of sub. (1m) (c) 2., an owner or
occupant of the grounds of a nonresidential building or of
land has notified an individual not to enter or remain on
the grounds or land while carrying a firearm or with a particular type of firearm if the owner or occupant has posted
a sign that is located in a prominent place near all probable access points to the grounds or land to which the
restriction applies and any individual entering the
grounds or land can be reasonably expected to see the
sign"
Keep reading you going to find it does not apply to the parking lots. The Mall is a business. This applies to Wisconsin were the OP was from ONLY
 
#4 ·
I realize by law that I can have my weapon in my car in their parking lot but I would NOT be able to walk in the parking lot and go into the mall carrying. (how I see it right now but not sure)
 
#5 ·
that sucks...... that's a terrible law. Here, no one can post grounds, parks, etc. ... only buildings. Even car garages cannot be posted because they are not considered a building.

So, can a city just post the sidewalk ? By the way that reads, it appears they could.
 
#6 ·
Wisconsin state law preempts local ordinances.

66.0409 Local Regulation of Firearms.
"(2) Except as provided in subs. (3) and (4), no political subdivision may enact an ordinance or adopt a
resolution that regulates the sale, purchase, purchase delay, transfer, ownership, use, keeping, possession,
bearing, transportation, licensing, permitting, registration or taxation of any firearm or part of a firearm,
including ammunition and reloader components, unless the ordinance or resolution is the same as or similar
to, and no more stringent than, a state statute"
 
#8 ·
Thanks SoleShtr, I think you can see where I'm coming from. I'm not sure the postings at all the parking lot entrances cover the building, therefore I can see that it could be legal to carry in the mall itself but not legal to carry from my vehicle to the building, in effect covering the mall itself.
 
#9 ·
Either mall management doesn't know what the law says, or they do know and their policy makes no sense. Because they have no signage at the building entrance, you could legally carry inside and they couldn't do anything about it. But they could wait until you left the building and then bust you. That makes a lot sense if you are trying to have a no weapons policy.
 
#10 ·
I'd be willing to bet that Mall Management consulted an attorney before posting the signs. Not sure the attorney got it right, but I think they are sure they are posting the whole place from street to street including the building by doing what they have done. Are they right? The operative question is, how much do you want to risk and spend to find out? It will take a trial, and maybe appeals to be sure. One thing I'm pretty sure of, nobody here can give the right answer with 100% confidence.

With that understanding, I'd either take my money someplace else (it can't be the only mall in town, or leave the gun home.

Fitch
 
#11 ·
Well the truth is....it is the only decent mall in Green Bay, WI LOL. I think I will avoid it as best I can and take my business elsewhere.
 
#18 ·
My interpretation is that it is pretty much an advanced warning for the mall building itself.

I didn't realize there were people from my area on here. Cool! Appleton (and surrounding area) give me a shout if you would want to get together for a range day.
 
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#20 ·
Range

Don't freeze outside when you can go to an indoor range in Lomira. Midwest shooters supply has a great indoor range only 5 lanes but went on tuesday and had no problem shooting. Only 1 other person was there when we started. Great ventilation as well. Highly recommend it. As far as carrying goes, if they take away our right by putting up a sign that says no firearms allowed, and the state DOES NOT grant them immunity against any lawsuits that may arise from posting such a sign, do we still not technically have the upper hand and right to carry? I mean if I go in there and could have legally protected myself with my carry weapon and difused a situation wouldn't that be a good thing? However, if I obey their sign and then get hurt when I could have protected myself I can legally sue for taking my right away and the state of wisconsin will NOT stick up for the business because it doesn't grant them immunity for taking the rights of the people away. Yes it is up to the business, but it's almost going to take a severe situation, like the one at the movie theatre in colorado, to be diffused by someone who didn't obey that sign but took a gunmen out to protect everyone else before anyone realizes the good versus the bad. Anyways that's just a rant.
 
#21 ·
Don't freeze outside when you can go to an indoor range in Lomira. Midwest shooters supply has a great indoor range only 5 lanes but went on tuesday and had no problem shooting. Only 1 other person was there when we started. Great ventilation as well. Highly recommend it.
There is a nice new range in Green Bay (Bellevue) also. Family Shooting Academy
 
#22 ·
This is the part of WI law I am waiting for someone to use if a place is posted and someone comes in with a firearm like in the CO theater. If they don’t post they are immune from liability. But what happens if they post? I think they are stating they are 100% responsible for your safety then. It will make an interesting case if or when it happens.

Wisconsin Statute 175.60 Concealed Carry Law
(21) Immunity.
(a) The department of justice, the department of transportation, and the employees of each department; clerks, as defined in sub. (11) (a) 1. a., and their staff; and court automated information systems, as defined under sub. (11) (a) 1. b., and their employees are immune from liability arising from any act or omission under this section, if done so in good faith.
(b) A person that does not prohibit an individual from carrying a concealed weapon on property that the person owns or occupies is immune from any liability arising from its decision.
(c) An employer that does not prohibit one or more employees from carrying a concealed weapon under sub. (15m) is immune from any liability arising from its decision.
(d) A person providing a firearms training course in good faith is immune from liability arising from any act or omission related to the course if the course is one described in sub. (4) (a).
History: 2011 a. 35; s. 13.92 (1) (bm) 2.
Wisconsin's Concealed Carry Law. Hinkston. Wis. Law. July 2012.
 
#27 ·
If the Salon was posted No Firearms then it would be a great case I believe. If they posted it then I believe they are saying they are 100% responsible for your safety while on their property and the law does not protect them from liability then. The law states you are immune if you don't post or don't tell your employees they can't carry.
 
G
#28 ·
Funny thing about our local mall. Some of the outer doors have signs, but not all. But Sears, which is one of the anchor stores does not. (4 outside entrances to the store) Since Sears would be about the only reason I would go there, I don't worry about it. I have never noticed any signs in the parking lot.
As to my local bank, I carry every time. They don't have signs, and I don't expect them to ever add them.
 
#34 ·
I glad I live in Texas, only place I can't carry is the military base, federal post office, and college..oh almost forgot Buffalo wild wings and they don't have the right gunbuster sign on all entrances...(don't go to bars)
 
#38 ·
I am assuming that you are just talking about places that you normally go where you aren't able to carry. There are certainly others that are off-limits. Also, at a college, you are only prevented from carrying into the buildings. You can carry while walking around the campus all you want (assuming there are no 30.06 signs if it is a private college).
 
#35 ·
943.13 (1m) (c)

2. While carrying a firearm, enters or remains in any part of a nonresidential building, grounds of a
nonresidential building, or land that the actor does not own or occupy after the owner of the building,
grounds, or land, if that part of the building, grounds, or land has not been leased to another person, or the
occupant of that part of the building, grounds, or land has notified the actor not to enter or remain in that part
of the building, grounds, or land while carrying a firearm or with that type of firearm. This subdivision does
not apply to a part of a building, grounds, or land occupied by the state or by a local governmental unit, to a
privately or publicly owned building on the grounds of a university or college, or to the grounds of or land
owned or occupied by a university of college, or, if the firearm is in a vehicle driven or parked in the parking
facility, to any part of a building, grounds, or land used as a parking facility.


bolded part, also have an issue here where none of the anchor stores are posted in a reasonable manner.

whats really funny about the whole thing, I live near Madison and am in the city a lot, most of the places I go aren't posted at all


also yes the salon was posted, but not with the 5x7 that the law says
 
#36 ·
My local mall (only one within 20 miles) has a 12x18 sign posted on the far left side of a vestibule at the MALL entrances.. its a code of conduct type posting, like no fighting, no destruction of property, no skateboarding.. and at the bottom, no firearms. tiny font.. its not titled in big letters as a NO FIREARMS sign.

Thing it, if you're walking in, there are 6-8 double doors going into the vestibule and again going into the mall.. you're not likely to see this sign.. BUT none, and I mean ZERO of the anchor stores, i.e Target, Sears, JC Penny, Younkers have any NO FIREARMS signs at all.. so if you entered one of those stores.. then used their mallside entrances to go into the common mall area, there are no signs at all in your path.

How does this affect a businesses right to prohibit firearms? In general and specifically, in Michigan? And what about the Dunhams Sports store inside the mall? It doesnt have its own exterior entrance, you can only enter the store from the mall corridor.. and they have about 100 firearms in that place.. for sale yes, but a firearm is present and possessed by a business entity (and when handling them, the employees are then in possession of a firearm)..

I dont want to call the Mall owners or main office and ask.. as soon as I do, I am sure there will be 24x36" signs on every flat surface of the outside of that building...thoughts?
 
#37 ·
"a prominent place near all probable access points to the grounds or land to which the
restriction applies and any individual entering the
grounds or land can be reasonably expected to see the
sign"

It reads as though if posted at each entrance to the parking area it's legit. But often other laws conflict or override any other. You need to ask a lawyer experienced in this area.
 
#39 ·
The local mall here is a "gun free" zone, which also means it's a "whoppo free" zone.
This is how I try to get my message across to the merchants in the mall:

When ever I make a substantial purchase (pretty much anything over $100) and there is a merchant in the mall that offers the same or similar product for sale, I take the time to scan/copy the sales receipt and research the SKU number of their similar offering. I send this to the local management and to the regional office of the store along with the following message:

Dear <insert name/title here):
In making my decision to purchase the item(s) described in the attached document(s) I found the availability and pricing of your offering of <insert item description / SKU number> to be very acceptable, however your physical location in the Maine Mall presents an impass. The Mall has chosen to post it's facilities as a "gun free zone", disallowing those who have submitted to criminal background checks in order to obtain a state issued concealed weapons permits from entering the building while armed. In doing so, the Maine Mall is preventing only law abiding citizens from excercising their rights as guaranteed by the 2nd Amendment and in no way discouraging criminals, who pay no attention to laws and/or "no gun" signs, from being armed within the walls of the Mall. I choose not to relinquish my tools of personal protection for the sake of shopping convenience. For this reason I have given my business and money to your competitor and will continue to do so until the Mall chooses to respect my rights as an American Citizen instead of making the Mall safer for criminals. To date, I have given approximately $ xxxx.xx worth of my business to your competitors for this same reason.

Respecfully,

Name / Address


=====

Now I've been doing this for a few years, during which I've bought electronics, furniture, clothing, etc. With purchases like a new leather living room set, hardwood bedroom set, a HD DLP projectors, computers, tires, automotive maintenance, etc. that "to date" line for only a half dozen of the Mall stores was exceeded $20,000... more than half of that targeted at Best Buy, who BTW was the only merchant to ever reply... suggesting I should buy online and pay for delivery.
 
#40 ·
But the mall is still posted, right? I find responses such as this have little overall effect on mall policies, as they evidently do also.
 
#41 ·
yeah.. still posted.
I have no delusions that losing my business has any impact, but it makes me feel good to keep reminding them anyway :)
 
#44 ·
But the mall is still posted, right? I find responses such as this have little overall effect on mall policies, as they evidently do also.
yeah.. still posted.
I have no delusions that losing my business has any impact, but it makes me feel good to keep reminding them anyway :)
It would be too bad if a bunch of people, maybe ones with big pickup trucks, just happened to all have their vehicles stall at all of the entrances to the mall at exactly the same time. It would be really too bad if it happened to be at 7:00 pm on a Friday or Saturday night during the Christmas shopping season and it took like a half hour for each of these vehicles to get moved, or suddenly start up without a problem. What would be a really amazing coincidence if all of these vehicles had the same Pro-2nd-Amendment sticker on their back windows.
Wow, that would be too bad, and an amazing coincidence.
 
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