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new permit, ONE BIG QUESTION

6K views 67 replies 31 participants last post by  Smitty901 
#1 ·
I regret not asking our concealed license teacher the following:

Can you verbally say u have a gun but still keep it concealed and obey the law (Florida)? Or if someone asks u if u have a gun, can u say u do?

I was wondering if the concealed law is only visual - may seem to be a stupid question but considering how close to "fully automatic" many guns are now or how close to switchblade some knives are with assist i wouldn't be surprised if there is a close call on this count as well...

Anyone? help please, i mean it just might be a GREAT idea to say u have a gun to diffuse a situation instead of having to brandish it and take it out of concealment... maybe george zimmerman could have said this as soon as his nose was punched? :confused:
 
#30 ·
not only that, but you may very well be facing charges of terroristic threatening if you announce that you have a gun.
 
#5 ·
erick, txron,

figured as much, that was my default position - even have planned answers to questioning... thanks, i'll take your word on it and do the double conceal...

now i just wonder about family and friends... if they know they know, does that somehow make me a criminal? and based on my training u can have a perfect outline of a gun showing that u have a gun but no one can complain, as it is "concealed" by your shirt or whatever...

so this does get ridiculous and just how thin a shirt can u have? ... open and concealed is the way... VERMONT... can be open or concealed...

the NRA has done great work over time, but we still have a long way to go... like i can't carry my gun into a bar, EVEN with a permit... this is by far the most NEEDED place of all the restricted places in florida, the most likely some bad guy will have a gun, once again the good citizen is restricted giving criminals the advantage...
 
#60 ·
the NRA has done great work over time, but we still have a long way to go... like i can't carry my gun into a bar, EVEN with a permit... this is by far the most NEEDED place of all the restricted places in florida, the most likely some bad guy will have a gun, once again the good citizen is restricted giving criminals the advantage...
Well, most people go to bars to drink. It's quite simple.. drugs/alcohol and guns don't mix well together. If you feel that a bar is the "most NEEDED place of all restricted places" than perhaps you're drinking at the wrong places. I'm not saying it's impossible for SHTF at a bar, but like neighborhoods, there's some that are better than others.
 
#6 ·
i just figured a verbal warning could be far better as to brandishing openly, at least as far as the law... and if the situation even allows pulling it out by law, why take they chance if u have a last chance to make a verbal warning work as u know u can still pull it out anyway (in whatever scenario and at whatever stage during a scuffle, multiple people, getting knocked down or whatever... "ESCALATION" is key as i have pepper and a blade at least, just as cops don't go directly to their guns always... sure, this may give the criminal more chances and time than he deserves but it could also look MUCH better in court that u gave the perp a chance...
 
#7 ·
If you need your weapon, pull it out. If you do not need it, leave it in its holster. A verbal to someone trying to kill you, will do just that, get you killed....
 
#8 ·
You ever watched a movie... any movie with a murder scene.... The bad guy talks too much almost every time... And, if his yakitty yak doesn't get him killed... it at least let's the good guy get him first...

Don't be a bad guy.

What if one day... you say "don't do that, I have a gun..." And the guy says to you (in a similar vein as Crocodile Dundee) "You call that a gun?" whilst he pulls out his real-honest-to-gosh-fully-automatic-illegal-UZI and ends you...

NO... Don't talk... don't tell... don't brag.... avoid stupid places,people and don't do stupid things...

And if you can't afford a class... Get a book.... and read it 3 times... and take notes... which book?

In the Gravest Extreme: The Role of the Firearm in Personal Protection By Massad Ayoob... Can't find the book? Go to the library... they will get a copy for you .. it might cost a buck or two for an interlibrary loan... But you get that book and you study it...

Yes, in the book there is at least one incident in which a gun is displayed... But NEVER is it said "I've got a gun."

You now have a permit... to carry a weapon... it is now time for you to quit worrying about who's is bigger..? who is the man? and all the other "grade school questions." Now is the time when you do your level best to avoid conflicts in which you might otherwise be tempted to say... "I've got a gun."

No... and don't bring Zimmerman into this... telling TM he had a gun before or after he was allegedly on the ground would have done nothing... and According to Z he thought TM was going for his gun anyway... The TM/Z thing is completely irrelevant...

Now... I've told you what I think is the BIG ANSWER to your BIG QUESTION.... But in case you don't read for comprehension the answer to your question is....


NO


Sorry for my snarkiness... I'm being direct and forthright with the answer I believe you need to hear.
 
#34 ·
funny answer, but helps... a consensus is helpful for me around here – even as much as I wish for far more freedom than we have had... but this is a reassuring changing colored map that gives us the trend as I hope people of like mind on this forum will spread it and show who is winning:

Concealed carry in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

scroll down just a bit and enjoy the map ;) hmmmm and notice which state is the hold out state... obama’s, well it was as a Senator, I guess now u could say he has them all...
 
#9 ·
INAL, but here's my take:
Why would you tell anyone? - if they ask - lie (unless you're talking about LEO)
If you are in a situation that warrants you drawing your weapon, draw; stating that you have access to a gun surrenders all advantages you had by carrying concealed in the first place - if armed, they can draw first and claim self defense since you "threatened them". If it hasn't escalated to that point where you are justified in presenting a weapon, stating you have one would amount to threatening someone with lethal force - then they've got your butt in a wringer.

Guns aren't for diffusing situations, they are for definitively ending them.

Getting punched in the nose is not a reason to pull out your gun or say you have one (see above) (generally speaking).

What do you mean when you say guns are "close to being fully automatic"?

The legalities of printing can vary from state to state, but it defeats the purpose/advantages of carrying concealed.
 
#11 ·
Depends on who's asking you. If it is a LEO in performance of his duties, yes by all means tell him, however don't go trying to show it to him. If it is Joe Blow on the street, just give him a stupid look, like you have no idea what he's talking about.
 
#12 ·
Archer, are you advocating that in an encounter with LEO, in the performance of his duties, you should say..."I've got a gun!"?

Nah... you AIN'T sayin' that, are you?

How about "Officer, I have a legally permitted firearm on my person, I have a legal permit for same in my wallet.... How would you like me to proceed?"
 
#17 ·
Ask any Permit Office or LEO for a Legal Opinion..? Really? The best thing they could do for you is to read you the state statute... NEVER get legal advice from a cop.. .or government official... NEVER.

And speaking of Zimmerman... the guy who sponsored the "stand your ground law" in FL... says it was never intended to be used for "THAT" whatever "THAT" was... and he was the guy who sponsored the bill... he ought to know what his own law says.. oughtn' he?

If you want a legal opinion... ask a judge.... good luck with that... so ask a lawyer... you will get a legal opinion... it may or may not turn out to be valid... read the law your own self...

or, since you live in Florida... Go to This Site and get the most comprehensive book on your states laws.
 
#15 ·
For the most part, the first time someone I don't know finds out I have a gun is when I'm shooting them with it. No, I've got a gun, here look at this, or anything. Put my life, or my families lives in danger and here it is, bang!
 
#19 ·
I only say this b/c my post contains the same type of comment: not semantics, but assumptions on your part. Either way you are telling the LEO you have a gun, you just took the time to be specific as to how to go about it. The law in some states says you must inform LEO if you are carrying, but it doesn't specify how even though there's a proper/appreciated way to go about it and one that's not so much appreciated.
 
#22 ·
Maybe I don't understand your post, but FL law is clear enough:
790.06 …. The licensee must carry the license, together with valid identification, at all times in which the licensee is in actual possession of a concealed weapon or firearm and must display both the license and proper identification upon demand by a law enforcement officer. Violations of the provisions of this subsection shall constitute a noncriminal violation with a penalty of $25, payable to the clerk of the court.
I can't put my finger on it, but IIRC, a recent FL law relaxed prohibition on printing and brief, unintentional exposure of a lethal carry weapon.
 
#20 ·
I would never mention to anyone that I'm carrying. (Except LEO, if I'm asked). That said, I disagree somewhat that you only pull your weapon out if you intend to shoot with it. I think that is too absolutist and might lead to an unnecessary shooting. I think often the mere presence of someone with an openly viewed firearm can serve to defuse a situation (without gunfire). Most (sane) people are correctly scared of an open firearm and will tend to back away from the situation. I think if I could stop a developing violent situation without having to shoot, then I'd have succeeded. Of course, the possibility and option to shoot is always still there if needed.

On the other hand, there is the issue of brandishing. About the quickest way to lose your carry permit and possibly even get yourself charged with a crime is to brandish a weapon. Even brandishing with the best of intentions can get you charged.

Sometimes it can be tough to know what the correct thing to do is.
 
#39 ·
Well then, lest clear this up. You have a threat (deadly force threat ) You pull your gun, the threat doesnt run and hide he continues his way to you. This is what you do. YOU SHOOT.. If the threat runs away after pulling your gun. Call the PD right away. File your report. Your gun is not a deterrent to crime, or criminals for that matter. You are a civilian, not a LEO or Military. Its not are job to right the wrongs in the world. Its our job to protect us, and our loved ones. Do it right or dont do it at all
 
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#21 ·
INAL, either. One part of your question involves brandishing. Threat, unnecessary escalation, drawing attention to the fact that you have a gun to influence a situation that doesn't call for lethal force are crimes. It's not a crime for your family to know that you are concealing - unless you threaten them.

The only time you may use lethal force legally is to defend yourself or another person from death or serious bodily harm or to prevent a forcible felony, such as rape, strong-arm robbery, burglary or kidnapping. In these situations, tactically, talking about a gun isn't good.

In fact, you could go from victim frying pan to fire if a violent criminal detects that you have a gun. This may be a factor in the George Zimmerman case?

Read and train, my friend.
 
#24 ·
i mean it just might be a GREAT idea to say u have a gun to diffuse a situation instead of having to brandish it and take it out of concealment...
If you and I were about to get into an altercation and you told me that you had a weapon I would consider that to be every bit the threat to my life as brandishing the weapon would be.

Michael
 
#46 ·
understood, the idea is if your life is ALREADY being threatened - maybe even just verbally, i've had people threaten to kill me AND be violent - now i can say i have a gun ;) my three foot long crowbar i used repeatedly is alot harder to swing and jab with like i used to ;) at 45 with arthritis i just want to pull a trigger or even just say i have a gun ;)
 
#25 ·
Florida law requires a concealed weapon to be concealed from "ordinary view." That's a visual requirement only. What you choose to state verbally has no legal bearing on anything.
 
#27 ·
Guns for the permit holder are not tools of compliance, or do what I say or I will use this.... They are tools of last resort, if your in a situation which you have the mental capacity of saying this you probably should have walked away 5 minutes ago. Guns are not their for you to get your point across or to enforce the law. If thats what you think then go to the police academy. Carrying a gun gives you more of a responsibility to turn the other cheek and walk away, vs using deadly force. You now have the ability to take life and change yours and your families for ever. Therefore I would strongly encourage you to take a class on conflict avoidance or at least read " In the gravest extreme" by massed ayoob. I'm not saying you should never ever use your gun in self defense, what am saying is you need to change your mindset.

Just because a law says you can/can't doesn't mean you should or shouldn't. Your safety is primary and no matter where you are Florida or California you are accountable for your actions. If you fear grave bodily harm or death take appropriate action, otherwise before your ever in the situation of " I have gun" walk away.
 
#48 ·
this idea of OH HE HAS A GUN SO HE WILL BE MORE BOLD AND CHALLENGING IN PUBLIC doesn't work for me, it makes me more careful and humble when i carry because i know the potential and as such MORE likely to avoid conflict and of course i worry alot less if conflict comes to me ;)

- i avoid people like the plague anyway - the lone wolf, with 8 9mm corbon powerball +P teeth if needed
 
#28 ·
One last thought a carpenter that only has a hammer can only pound nails... A CCW holder with a gun may only use deadly force even the mention or presence of a gun maybe viewed as deadly force in many jurisdictions. Not ever problem is a nail. Somebody punching you may call on the need for a good face full of OC, or somebody approaching you in a weird unusual manner should recieve the high intensity of a good flashlight to the face. There are many things you can do to control a situation when you think your actions maybe questioned. Just remembers hen somebody comes at you for what ever reason not every problem is a nail that needs to be pounded.
 
#29 · (Edited)
Good comments so far. Lots of good opinions, food for thought.

i mean it just might be a GREAT idea to say u have a gun to diffuse a situation instead of having to brandish it and take it out of concealment...
No, bad idea.

C.Y.A. Can You Articulate. The statutes related to self-defense and use-of-force are nearly always written in the "reasonable man" perspective, stating that one may take reasonable actions in a situation where a reasonable person would believe such actions to be necessary. Translation: others will judge your actions.

In anything you do in a self-defense situation, you need to be able to clearly articulate a credible threat, and to articulate the justifiability of what you did. Knowing where that dividing line is can be hard. But it's someone else's life you're capable of taking. You'd better be damned certain that your actions are necessary to protect innocent life (your own or others), even if "only" threatening its use.

Imagine being on a jury, in which the defendant is being charged with menacing or similar, the type of thing you're concerned with in this thread. Imagine the defendant claimed he felt assailed but not yet actually attacked, and yet he threatened the potential use of a firearm to stop being assailed. What was the infraction by the alleged assailant? What was the threat? Did it justify the use of deadly force, or even the threat of its use? Ask yourself this: if the defendant didn't feel that deadly force was actually needed, then what in the world is he doing threatening the use of deadly force? Think about it.

Some possible reactions to alleged threatening behavior by an assailant:
  • Simply leaving, saying/doing nothing else.
  • Verbally resisting, ie saying "no."
  • Verbally stating you'd use force to stop being assailed. <-- what you're suggesting
  • Physically showing you'd use force to stop being assailed (ie, removing hands from you).
  • Physically using less-than-lethal force to stop being assailed.
  • Verbally threatening the use of deadly force.
  • Physically threatening the use of deadly force (ie, grabbing your weapon).
  • Presenting your weapon.
  • Using your weapon.

While there's certainly no clear-cut continuum of force specified in the statutes, you get the idea. As the threat becomes clearer, the severity of response actions becomes easier to justify. How far is too far? How reasonable is "reasonable"? It's whatever the DA/jury judge that to be. You'll need to decide what you're comfortable with, how far you're prepared to go at each level of a threatening situation. Think it through. Welcome to citizenry.

That said, in the end we each need to decide on the instant where that dividing line is, at which point we'd each be willing to step up and cease an attack against us. For my part, I'm unwilling to take a life unless mine is actually credibly threatened, but that's just me. Where, exactly, I would take steps to handle or present my weapon(s) would depend heavily on the specific circumstances.

Read Ayoob's In The Gravest Extreme. Re-read.
 
#31 ·
Good comments so far. Lots of good opinions, food for thought.



No, bad idea.

C.Y.A. Can You Articulate. The statues related to self-defense and use-of-force are nearly always written in the "reasonable man" perspective, stating that one may take reasonable actions in a situation where a reasonable person would believe such actions to be necessary. Translation: others will judge your actions.

In anything you do in a self-defense situation, you need to be able to clearly articulate a credible threat, and to articulate the justifiability of what you did. Knowing where that dividing line is can be hard. But it's someone else's life you're capable of taking. You'd better be damned certain that your actions are necessary to protect innocent life (your own or others), even if "only" threatening its use.

Imagine being on a jury, in which the defendant is being charged with menacing or similar, the type of thing you're concerned with in this thread. Imagine the defendant claimed he felt assailed but not yet actually attacked, and yet he threatened the potential use of a firearm to stop being assailed. What was the infraction by the alleged assailant? What was the threat? Did it justify the use of deadly force, or even the threat of its use? Ask yourself this: if the defendant didn't feel that deadly force was actually needed, then what in the world is he doing threatening the use of deadly force? Think about it.

Some possible reactions to alleged threatening behavior by an assailant:
  • Simply leaving, saying/doing nothing else.
  • Verbally resisting, ie saying "no."
  • Verbally stating you'd use force to stop being assailed. <-- what you're suggesting
  • Physically showing you'd use force to stop being assailed (ie, removing hands from you).
  • Physically using less-than-lethal force to stop being assailed.
  • Verbally threatening the use of deadly force.
  • Physically threatening the use of deadly force (ie, grabbing your weapon).
  • Presenting your weapon.
  • Using your weapon.

While there's certainly no clear-cut continuum of force specified in the statutes, you get the idea. As the threat becomes clearer, the severity of response actions becomes easier to justify. How far is too far? How reasonable is "reasonable"? It's whatever the DA/jury judge that to be. You'll need to decide what you're comfortable with, how far you're prepared to go at each level of a threatening situation. Think it through. Welcome to citizenry.

That said, in the end we each need to decide on the instant where that dividing line is, at which point we'd each be willing to step up and cease an attack against us. For my part, I'm unwilling to take a life unless mine is actually credibly threatened, but that's just me. Where, exactly, I would take steps to handle or present my weapon(s) would depend heavily on the specific circumstances.

Read Ayoob's In The Gravest Extreme. Re-read.
Like like like like like like why haven'ti found the stupid like tab did I forget to mention like like like like .... Thank you CCW9mm
 
#33 ·
Bilstaf, afa intending to shoot; the mere intent to shoot in response to aggression does not equal commitment to shoot, remember that saying "the road to hell is paved with good intentions" - part of that is not following through with one's intentions.

I think that if you find yourself drawing weapon, it should only be when there is a justifiable reason to draw - which means there is a justifiable reason to shoot. Therefore, at that point, someone did/said something so aggressive to cause you to believe you are justified. That person did something to escalate the situation, you, the victim, are reacting to it - with the intent to shoot. In the course of the victim presenting a weapon, it is up to that aggressor to do/say something to deescalate the situation - be it run, put hands up, verbally deescalate, etc before the victim of aggression pulls the trigger; any hesitation before that deescalation on the part of the victim is the victim's choice.
 
#35 ·
deterrent, just as it operates this way in open carry states as u MUST open carry in them... i keep telling internationals not to snow ball the whole USA into one judgment, our laws vary greatly from state to state and then some all with their own points as this debate carries on here.

The NRA says (exaggerates) some 2 million times a year guns are brandished – rarely shot... its a big time diffuser, happens a lot... and yes, if someone punches u in the nose u can pull a gun, mine would bleed big time ;) --- there is much to be said for pistol whipping, if u wrap your index figure around the outside of the trigger housing u can use the gun (barrel tip) for your return punch to their nose, if u want to take a chance of losing your gun and returning the favor in much worse fashion AND communicate to your fellow nose puncher that the next punch might have a very load bang to it ;)

- just a possible scenario ;)

to answer your question, bump fire... check out this: Valkyrie BSR Mod-1... i’d argue even better than full auto as it keeps the recoil horizontal with the slide fireQUOTE=nedrgr21;2322260]INAL, but here's my take:
Why would you tell anyone? - if they ask - lie (unless you're talking about LEO)
If you are in a situation that warrants you drawing your weapon, draw; stating that you have access to a gun surrenders all advantages you had by carrying concealed in the first place - if armed, they can draw first and claim self defense since you "threatened them". If it hasn't escalated to that point where you are justified in presenting a weapon, stating you have one would amount to threatening someone with lethal force - then they've got your butt in a wringer.

Guns aren't for diffusing situations, they are for definitively ending them.

Getting punched in the nose is not a reason to pull out your gun or say you have one (see above) (generally speaking).

What do you mean when you say guns are "close to being fully automatic"?

The legalities of printing can vary from state to state, but it defeats the purpose/advantages of carrying concealed.[/QUOTE]
 
#42 ·
if he was ambushed from a bush that might have been hard, but i just keep saying he should have had pepper, i do all the time, then a blade, and then gun - with arthritis in my hands i can NOT make a fist the past several days so for me its **** OLD SCHOOL FIGHTING HONOR, weapons first and only
 
#50 ·
OP, just keep it concealed and don't go blabbing. Your close relatives may or may not know that you have your permit but if you conceal it properly they won't be able to, nor will they have to know if you have a firearm on you. You should treat it as just another dress piece in your daily routine and no one needs to know about it until either tactfully informing LE that you are licensed and have it with you or when your life is in grave danger and you have no other choice but to present it and stop the threat. That's IT. I don't see it being any more complicated than that.
 
#54 ·
sounds good, wise and a simple enough summation to cover most all situations...
- damn bro, u gotta at least have a crossbow ;) i have a 760 myself, 10 pumps and 600+ fps for a .17 BB? good for mice, if even... come one, u gotta have something... go ahead and tell us what guns u have, really?
 
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