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No serial number?!

19K views 18 replies 10 participants last post by  HotGuns 
#1 ·
I was offered to purchase a Charter 2000 .357 pug magnum at a gun show. The gun did not have a serial number anywhere! Is this possible? Where it should've been it was as smooth as the rest of the gun.

I was reluctant and passed. Isn't that illegal to posses a gun without a number? I'm in MS.

Ikon
 
#2 ·
Yes. Modern firearms must have a serial number. I am not sure if the serial number has to be visible. It could have been inside the mechanism. However, it could also have been a set up for arrest if they told you it had no serial number, or you caught it, and they still wanted to sell it to you, since the law says "knowingly."

I think this is up to date:

E. PROHIBITED FIREARMS & AMMO

1. National Firearms Act – A person who intends to make, receive or possess any of the following NFA firearms must first pay a tax and have the firearm registered with the Federal government (ATF): 26 U.S.C. §§ 5801- 5872, 10 years for each violation.

Short Barrel Shotgun, barrel length less than 18 inches or overall length less than 26 inches, § 5845

Short Barrel Rifle, barrel length less than 16 inches or overall length less than 26 inches, § 5845

Silencer, 18 U.S.C. § 921 (a)(3)(C)

Destructive device, (bomb, IED, Molotov cocktail)18 U.S.C. § 921 (a)(3), (a)(4); 26 U.S.C. § 5845

Machine Gun, § 5845

(Since 1986 a person may not legally make a machine gun for himself but may legally acquire one already registered with ATF: § 922 (o), 10 years).

“Any other Weapon”, weapon capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged via an explosive (e.g., ring gun, club gun, belt buckle gun, handlebar gun, pen gun) etc., § 5845

2. Stolen Firearms & Ammo- Illegal to steal, possess, or receive a stolen firearm or ammo, §§ 922 (i), 922(j), 922 (u), 924 (l), 924 (m), 10 years.

3. Hand Gun Armor Piercing Ammo, definition: § 921 (a)(17)(B)&(C) violations: § 922 (a)(7), (a)(8), 923(e), 929, 924 (c)(5), different penalties.

4. Undetectable Firearm - Illegal to import, make or possess – § 922 (p), 5 years.

5. Body Armor – Illegal for person previously convicted of a felony crime of violence to purchase, own or possess body armor – §§ 921 (a)(35), 931, 3 years.

6. Firearms with serial numbers removed/obliterated/altered – Illegal to knowingly possess a firearm with the serial number removed, changed, etc., § 922 (k), 5 years.
 
#3 ·
You were right to pass on it. I would have pulled out my droid and made a video of the piece and then got law enforcement involved.
 
#5 ·
...I would have pulled out my droid and made a video of the piece and then got law enforcement involved.
If I had a droid in my pocket, I would have used it to find out where the serial number is actually located on a Charter Arms Pug. It pretty rare to see an illegally altered gun...at a gun show.
 
#9 ·
Folks should be aware of the fact that firearm electro-platers, firearm customizers, and engravers sometimes need to remove an original factory stamped serial number and then relocate or re-stamp that firearm serial number.

Such as in cases where Nickel plating would render a faint or very lightly stamped factory serial number invisible.

Or when heavy pitting exists on a firearm and major metal removal to eliminate pits, scratches, dents and gouges would also compromise the factory stamped number.

Or say if a handgun needs a custom optics mount machined into the frame and that needs to be in in a location where the factory stamped serial number would be obliterated.

If the firearm has an existing serial number that exact same serial number can be re-stamped in a different location on the firearm receiver.

There are very specific height and depth requirements for stamping the replaced identical serial number on the ATF website...or at least the info used to be there years ago.

I remember also that if you were completing an 80% firearm frame.

Normally that could never be legally sold if it had no serial number.

But, you could stamp it with a custom serial number and have that serial number registered with the ATF and then it could be treated like a normal firearm. I am not certain what the exact procedure is (or was) or even if completing an 80% is still legal.

All of this may have have changed in recent years so call your nearest ATF office and verify if you ever need to re-locate a firearm serial number.

Just be aware of the fact that a serial number identical to the factory stamped serial number needs to be ON the part of the firearm that is considered to be the receiver.
 
#10 ·
But, you could stamp it with a custom serial number and have that serial number registered with the ATF and then it could be treated like a normal firearm.
I have an M1911 that had it's serial number defaced, it was given a new serial by the ATF.

 
#12 ·
I was in my LGS when a regular brought in an nice (old) Colt Woodsman that didn't have a serial number. We COMBED that pistol looking for one! The owner got in touch with Colt and apparently in 1919 it wasn't necessary! Very nice.
 
#13 ·
That's interesting, Colt has always used serial numbers, but if the Woodsman was never stamped with a serial number, meaning it was not removed/obliterated/altered, and made before 1968, it would be legal to possess. The key is if it never had one and made it out of the factory, and proving it. 1919 Woodsman serial number ranges are 6500-11999.
 
#14 ·
The laws required for the ATF sometimes border on ridiculous.

For instance...you can make a firearm for yourself legally. It is not required by the ATF to have one, but highly reccomended if you built it so that if lost or stolen it can be traced.

You can build one for yourself,but you can not build it for the sole purpose of selling it. You can sell it at a later date.

The numbers that you use must be at least 1/16 of an inch tall and at least .003 deep. Most lasers or chemical etches will not go that deep.

As already mentioned, many older guns do not have serial numbers.
I have a single barrel 12 gage made around 1900 that does not have one and it is legal to own.

It may be that the number of the Charter Arms is stamped underneath the part that opens the cylinder. On some revolvers, no number is evident until you pop open the cylinder. I dont know if this is true for the Charter Arms, but it would be worth it to check.
 
#17 ·
I'm pretty certain that if you have a firearm custom built you can also still have personalized serial number registered for it.

Like say if Bob Jones just paid big bucks to have firearm completely custom built from the ground up with a CNC fabricated receiver the maker could get BOBJONES30-30 registered with the ATF as his registered serial number.

What made me think of that is on American Guns they CNC machined a brand new Winchester 94 receiver out of a solid block Titanium for a customer.

I'm best guessing that if the original receiver had a factory serial number - they could re-stamp that serial number on the new receiver and then immediately destroy the original steel receiver.

Since there cannot be two firearms with the same identifying number.

Or if the original rifle was old enough that if (by chance) it had no factory serial number they would have to give it a new (registered w/ ATF) serial number and that could be a custom serial number.

And if the customer was John Smith the ATF could give him JS 30-30 or SMITH-94.

Just a best, common sense guess on my part.
 
#19 ·
I'm pretty certain that if you have a firearm custom built you can also still have personalized serial number registered for it
You can, I do it often.

The manufacturer (me) must fill out a form 2 on any firearms manufactured. It gets sent to the ATF for approval and when it comes back, you put them on the gun.
Lots of people use their names,birthdates,kids birthdates, any memorable occasion numbers or letters can be used as long as it hasnt been used before.

Some people have their inititals, with the date and then consecutive serial numbers for each gun built after that.

If using a Form One to make an SBR,SBS or silencer, you assigne what number you want to it on the Form and its yours once it gets approved. You must also stamp your name and address on the reciever.
 
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