Defensive Carry banner

Coming home and you notice a police cruiser...

7K views 86 replies 40 participants last post by  golf97 
#1 ·
Alright, you come home and notice a police cruiser in front of your home with lights on. No other cars are present. No one else can see your home from the street (i.e. end of street and have privacy or neighbors are gone, etc.) Your family is inside the house, to the best of your knowledge, and, as far as you are know, is unaware of anything going on outside. When you pull past the cruiser you notice that the police officer is not in the vehicle. When you pull in the driveway you notice he is, instead, wrestling with a man in the bushes next to your house. When you pull up, you get out of the car and the officer is screaming at you for help. The man keeps reaching for the police officer's pistol, is somewhat larger (6'-200lbs.), and that is all the information you have. What do you do?

In case anyone needs to know, this is not hypothetical. It actually happened to a family member. I will not discuss how my family member responded but am wondering what you folks would do.

If you need additional details I will provide as many as possible, but remember all the details you have are just based on visual cues (i.e. you don't know if this crazy guy just hurt your family inside, etc.) and you have to react quick. It would be best to consider this your house (for sake of plant locations, door locations, fences, etc).

Thanks for the feedback!
 
See less See more
#2 ·
Get as close as possible and administer a DT headshot to the BG.

Pull BG off of the officer and inquire to his/her (officer's) well being.

Cover BG to give officer time to recover.

Order family members inside to stay inside.

Make sure officer calls it in and when help arrives inform responding BU that I am a good guy. My gun will probably be still trained on BG at low ready.

1) Headshot is an effective place for a bullet to go to stop a threat. I don't know how long said struggle has been taking place and I need to neutralize BG as fast as possible. Said officer might have been wearing down, if BG had gotten a hold of officer's gun, as soon as that muzzle clears the holster a shot could mean death for the officer. If he got shot in the leg, it could have severed a main artery and he could have bled to death before EMS could arrive.

2) Why did you shoot him when you could have just pulled him off? I mean, you pulled him off after you shot him? Why shoot him, then pull him off when you could have just pulled him off?

Because I felt physical force would have been ineffective. I pulled the BG off of the officer after I shot the BG and was satisfied the threat to the officer's life was stopped. This was to allow the officer to breath freely and not have his lungs compressed by weight of BG and remove the threat from the officer as much as possible and to allow the officer to regain composure so he could call for EMS for the BG and for himself.

3) The officer has been through enough. Help until BU arrives. Let officer regain composure and start to get over the attack, catch breath, call for EMS, etc. Chances are he sent out a ONA call, but maybe not.

4) Family members to stay inside for their safety and the less people around and about is better.
 
#24 ·
Get as close as possible and administer a DT headshot to the BG. etc. etc.
I agree. The officer was "screaming for help" against a rather large attacker.
I am the only one there who can offer help. I am not highly trained at hand-to-hand combat. I am not going to risk my life, the officer's life, and my family's life by trying to be "careful" with the life of this violent attacker.

2) Why did you shoot him when you could have just pulled him off? I mean, you pulled him off after you shot him? Why shoot him, then pull him off when you could have just pulled him off?
Because then it's a struggle between me, at 175 pounds, and a guy who has just been overpowering a trained police officer. If I get him off the officer, and he starts beating the hell out of me, the officer may well then just shoot him. So what's the difference? But we are talking, I would remind anyone, about someone who is in a life-death struggle with a police officer and evidently is not losing. It would be fair to expect me to go hand-to-hand against this person, just because you'd rather I didn't shoot him and end his threat definitively?
 
#3 ·
Since I'd be unarmed..

coming home from work, I work on Federal property, I'd take my belt off and wrap it around the BG's neck as I attempt to position myself between the LEO's firearm and the BG. The BG would now have to be dealing with me and the LEO could pull his firearm and end the struggle. But then again, I could be all wrong. I wouldn't have many other options that come to mind.
 
#4 ·
Considering that I'm just coming home(if from work), my gun will probably be in my hand already. I offer assistance in whatever way possible. Is the officer on top or bottom? Does he just need help restraining the guy, or is he losing the battle for the gun? There are too many unknowns for me. I would probably start with a boot to the BG's head, then help to restrain, but if the officers in REAL trouble, I shoot first, maybe a contact shot to the head just to ensure I don't hit the good guy. Basically, do whatever you can, to the best of your ability and you should be protected by "Good Samaritan" laws (I hope).
 
#25 ·
Is the officer on top or bottom? Does he just need help restraining the guy, or is he losing the battle for the gun? There are too many unknowns for me. I would probably start with a boot to the BG's head, then help to restrain, but if the officers in REAL trouble, I shoot first, maybe a contact shot to the head just to ensure I don't hit the good guy.

I think that these questions ("unknowns") are irrelevant. If there is a struggle going on between a police officer, who has a handgun, and any person who is willing to actually duke it out with a police officer, that officer's gun is never more than about ONE SECOND AWAY from being taken in hand by the attacker and used to murder the officer.

My view, share it if you like, is that if the officer is in ANY hand-to-hand combat situation with the attacker, he IS ALREADY in "REAL trouble." How much realer could it possibly get? Any given moment is only one more moment away from having the attacker be armed with the officer's gun!
 
#5 ·
Draw, quick scan for other BGs, move to advantaged position with clear backstop (i.e. so I don't hit the officer).

Command the subject to raise his hands and step away from the officer.

If he does not immediately comply and continues to attempt to disarm the officer, shoot for effect. IMHO, any individual attempting to disarm a uniformed law enforcement officer is an imminent deadly threat. He has a purpose in mind for which he wants that gun.

Matt
 
#6 ·
The boot to the head would be a first reaction.
a shot to the head a second and if in dire straits for the officer maybe the first action but not the first inclination.

i wonder how you/I would be protected by the city while genuinely helping one of a city finest if we actually shot the BG? (I don't wanna drag the post off topic though)

as, per the story, it was "solicited" help.
 
#26 ·
The boot to the head would be a first reaction.
a shot to the head a second and if in dire straits for the officer maybe the first action but not the first inclination.
For all who offer "boot to the head," "maglite upside the head," or any other brawl-type response, I have to ask, what if you swing and miss, or swing but don't greatly affect an adrenalized, crazed, powerful man? Now he is aware of you, and as I already said, he still is no farther from the officer's gun than he was before. The cop may now be confused, thinking you are an accomplice. His distraction may result in him losing control of his gun to the attacker, and now both you and the cop may be shot and killed. Do you attempt the boot to the head with your gun drawn? What if you slip or get knocked down?

There is far too much risk, in my view, of attempting to kick the guy off the officer. Too much can go wrong; it can fail to have enough of an affect; and every moment that the struggle continues is a moment in which the control of the gun can be turned over to the bad guy.

i wonder how you/I would be protected by the city while genuinely helping one of a city finest if we actually shot the BG?
You are justified at law in using deadly force against someone who is committing a forcible violent felony, right? Pretend the cop is your wife, and the guy is on top of her trying to rape and strangle her or cut her throat. You'd be legally justified then, so why not when someone is attacking an officer of the law, who quite definitely has a gun he might lose control of? If you are asking about whether they will hire lawyers for you, I don't know. But why would you NEED a lawyer in this case? Do you really think the city would charge you after saving the cop's hide?
 
#7 ·
I would help. Standing back and drawing won't do much here. The fight is already on, and the bad guy is focused on the officer. He needs help now, not in a few minutes.

I would join in the fight, doing whatever it takes to let the officer regain control. Preferably, I would try and keep the fight on the ground, it will be easier to restrain BG now that it is two against one. I would still follow a proper use of force continuum.
 
#9 ·
Here I will respectfully disagree. Adding another body into the close contact fight is not, IMHO, the best solution. You are introducing another gun into the wrestling match, doubling the BG's opportunities to gain hold of a weapon during the melee.

He may be drugged up and feeling nothing, in which case he may well get loose.

If he's got hold of the officer's weapon, he's an imminent lethal threat, IMHO.

Matt
 
#8 ·
I live in MD

I don't have access to firearms outside of my residence. I DO have a 4 D cell Mag-Lite, under the drivers seat of my car, with which I would apply latterally (with as much force as I could muster) to the neck of the BG. (hopeing to cause immediate swelling to the major blood vessels in the neck). I would then substitute the Mag light in place of my right Forearm to the front of his neck (using a "Sleeper" like hold) while peeling off BG rearward and down to the ground. I would continue to apply pressure until the police officer was able to regain control of BG.

I would then ask the officer if he would sign off on my "just cause" statement so that I can be properly armed if/when the BG or one of his friends comes back for revenge.

MikeV
 
#10 ·
Get a hold of any available limb any apply as much pain to it as humanly possible (wrist lock, elbow lock, break bones what ever).

I have no care of this persons welfare. First off, he is on my property, and I have no idea as to the wefare of my family as I have not been inside yet. Second, he is attempting to gain access to a deadly weapon, and I am not interested in being shot let alone killed. Hopefully breaking his arm would be enough to persuade him to stop fighting and trying to kill the officer or myself. Besides, if it is broken it can't be used nearly as effectively in a fight. This allows me opportunity to go for something a little more vital for a coup de grace.
 
#27 ·
All of that concern about the deadly threat this guy poses, and still you are talking about just maybe breaking an arm and hoping that doing so takes the fight out of him?

Why are so many people saying they'd opt for iffy half-measures here?
The guy is fighting a cop and may get control of a FIREARM. The fact that he is fighting the cop is proof of this intention. This is not a time to offer a plan that may or may not succeed. Gunshots will succeed. Just get close enough to place them with certainty.

Why, though, break an arm and THEN give the "coup de grace?" Why not just make the coup de grace FIRST?
 
#12 ·
I'll throw a wrinkle into this situation......it is just to make you think 'What if?'.......

here's the wrinkle......What if it were to turn out the 'civilian' was your neighbor who just caught the LEO in bed with your wife?

Maybe you just shot the wrong bad guy.....
 
#16 ·
That does happen, not infrequently, but it doesn't change much, from your legal end- you are acting in good faith, preserving the life of an officer in distress. I would assume you would be citation free, for many years..........:biggrin2:

Honestly, a shot, or a good club are the best answers. Provided you honestly feel the officer is in imminent danger, you have no responsibility to "apprehend" or "detain", whatever you do should be brutal and crippling, ie, "lethal"- again, you don't know what's going on, but Barney Fifes won't usually be given single-officer patrol, so the BG is really bad/really doped/or something similar.
 
#13 · (Edited)
My neighbor, has more guns than most folks do. He wouldn't be wrestling around with a cop fighting for the cops gun. If anything he would have brought his own to the party.

In answer to your question, I have speent enough time with my neighbor that I would recognize him in any light conditions less pitch black. your wrinkle really isn't in my view point.:wink:

But anyway my first post still applies.

MikeV
 
#30 ·
That's battery with a deadly weapon, and could easily cause his death.
Again, why not simply shoot him?

Instead, you want your hands occupied with a shovel, and have to then draw your handgun once you've hit the guy but he didn't go down all the way? Now he is aware of you whereas before he might not have been.

Since you're talking about a potentially deadly attack (the shovel), why bother with that instead of going straight for what you know will work?
 
#15 ·
I don't think my neighbor would try to get his gun, or go over there in the first place, if anything he would come up to me not the police officer.


For the main topic, if hes reaching for the cops gun, I would go up and try to retain his hands somehow, or if I had something hard, I would try knock him out with a blow or two, If he had the gun in his hand, holstered or not, I would probably look for a clean shot.
 
#18 ·
Well if the BG was trying to get the LEO's gun then I would assume that the BG, once he gets the gun he is going to use it againts the LEO. Depending on position and if the BG actually almost has the gun or not, I will grab a ladder and climb on top and drop an elbow on the BG's neck. lol Seriously if I can avoid having to kill the BG I will but if left with no other choice I wouldn't hesitate to stop him permanently.

I read an article where a citizen killed a BG that was wrestling with a LEO and the LEO's gun.
 
#19 ·
Ive been in a situation very similiar to this, except on a lonely county road in the middle of the day. In fact it was the event that spurred me towards law enforcement.

It occurred before I was 21, so I did not have my CCW or a weapon with me, a reason I soon began taking HTH classes.

I wont go into details here, but if you want to know more I have links to the local paper writeups you may see.

Needless to say, it wasnt 1 BG, it was 2. Both were hopped up on heroin, ad it was later found that there was a total of 11 knives on or about the 2 men, and a loaded 12 gauge under the front seat.

My basic response was to let the officer know I was there to help, then I entered his cruiser and told the dispatcher that I was a civilian, that the officer needed immediate assistance, the exact location (within 100ft.) and that I was moving to assist the officer.

She issued a call for ALL units in the area to respond. (a total of 13 showed up before all was said and done)

I moved close to the struggle, told the second man to get on the tailgate and not get involved, then assisted the officer in subduing the resisting man after a lengthy struggle involving a full can of OC and multiple baton strikes. Once the man was finally cuffed, the officer instructed me to keep an eye on him, as he moved to arrest the second indvidual and search the truck.

Approx. 6 minutes after the dispatcher called for backup, 3 DPS units and a county Constable arrived on the scene, going full code 3.

Of course, I was the first person they were looking at as they pulled their guns and moved into the scene.

After everything was said and done, the 2 men were both felons on parole, were in posession of multiple controlled substances, and were both on their way back to prison. The officer was alright, and got to go home, and I made it out just fine.

Lesson that I walked away with: always be prepared. You never know when you may be called on to assist in saving someones life, even your own. This was a very convincing point for me to get my CCW.
 
#21 ·
She issued a call for ALL units in the area to respond. (a total of 13 showed up before all was said and done)

Approx. 6 minutes after the dispatcher called for backup, 3 DPS units and a county Constable arrived on the scene, going full code 3.
That was a FAST response time, especially in the country. Many times it can take longer. I bet that 6 minutes felt like 6 hours. It is easy to see why we all need to be armed and make good clear thought-out decisions.

I enjoy reading and appreciate everyone's responses.
 
#22 ·
That was a FAST response time, especially in the country. Many times it can take longer. I bet that 6 minutes felt like 6 hours. It is easy to see why we all need to be armed and make good clear thought-out decisions.

Indeed it was. It wasnt so much in the country as it was a county road just outside a city.

It did feel like forever.
 
#29 · (Edited)
If there is enough light for you to identify a uniformed officer struggling with another guy, and if the officer is yelling for help, that very nearly eliminates any possibility of a mis-identification or "interfering with the actions of an officer."

My gun is coming out for sure, and I would close distance as quickly as possible from a side-angle while yelling for the guy in the *insert color here* shirt to get on the ground. Whether or not I fire depends on whether I can get a clear shot, and whether the cop is being overpowered or not.

It is entirely possible that my arrival would either distract or confuse the BG long enough for the cop to gain or press his dominance, and my help from there on would be limited to covering the BG while he's cuffed.

If, however, in my judgement, I determined the officer to be in immediate danger of being shot or otherwise seriously injured, I would be forced to shoot the BG, either in the head if I could safely make the shot, or multiples to the body, until he stops fighting.

Obviously, this decision would have to be made over the course of a couple of seconds. I'm not gonna stand there and play ref while they fight. If at any time, the BG gains dominance, I would assume (and justifiably so) that he's going for the officer's gun, and that puts the cops life in immediate danger.

This is actually one of those rare situations where I don't think calling 911 would be needed. If I had the presence of mind, I might hit the speed-dial on my phone and drop it back in my pocket, but the fight could take a very bad turn in the time it takes to explain things to a dispatcher. And afterwards, I'm sure the officer's own radio would be more than sufficient to get more units on scene.
 
#53 ·
This is actually one of those rare situations where I don't think calling 911 would be needed. If I had the presence of mind, I might hit the speed-dial on my phone and drop it back in my pocket, but the fight could take a very bad turn in the time it takes to explain things to a dispatcher. And afterwards, I'm sure the officer's own radio would be more than sufficient to get more units on scene.
I stopped reading here, so if this has already been answered, my bad.

Bob The Great, I don't know about the local LEO where you live, but the ones here have emergency buttons on their portables, as well as a couple of large red buttons on their computer that calls out an "officer in distress." If those buttons are hit and nobody calls in a error code for hitting the button an all units call is put out over every department in the county.


As for this situation... There are so many variables. The only correct answer I could possibly give is that I would help the officer.
 
#32 ·
We are still in a tiny minority, though, Charlie.

When you think about it, do you really think that most citizens who DON'T carry are going to be as willing as we are to engage if you are being whupped?

You'd be lucky if they could think to go and call 911! :rolleyes:

What we need is more CCWing citizens, and lots of 'em!
 
#34 ·
My response to this scenario is simple: if the officer is down on the ground and the dirtbag is trying to disarm him/her, place muzzle firmly to the side of said dirtbag's head, turn my face away, squeeze trigger once.

End of fight.
 
#35 ·
+1 :congrats:

If you are carrying here in AZ, if a Sherrif, DPS, or local police officer requests assistance, you're required to give it. I don't think I'd even think twice about it, though. It's a uniformed officer and his car is in my drive. The SOB trying to do him harm is toast.
 
#40 ·
When you pull in the driveway you notice he is, instead, wrestling with a man in the bushes next to your house. When you pull up, you get out of the car and the officer is screaming at you for help. The man keeps reaching for the police officer's pistol, is somewhat larger (6'-200lbs.), and that is all the information you have. What do you do?


This doesn't appear to say that they are rolling on the ground exactly. They are just wrestling in the bushes. The other guy is about the same size as me, so the way I figure it the cop know intervention will be on his behalf. He hasn't said the kill this guy, or shoot him, just asking for help. I would have to help the cop subdue the other guy without running up and doing a double tap the the skull or whatever. More than likely would be going after an arm or if available a choke hold on the neck that will allow the officer to gain control and cuff the other guy. I figure is I am in position a good choke hold with they guys head pulled back might even require grabbing they eye sockets or nostrils, whater, will take most of the fight off the cop and let him do his job.
 
#41 ·
How about getting handfull of hair, ears or eyes and bend his head back and shove 3'' of a 5'' barrel down his throat and don't mine his teeth, that well his attention if not you know the next step. It work in one case that I know of.:wink:
 
#43 ·
So once again, I figure that the surest way to end this quickly is probably to fire on the attacker. I can't think of good reasons why we want to preserve this guy's life so very much. It sounds like some here care a bit much that we take steps to not "have to" kill him. I don't feel that way.

It isnt that he deserves to live. It is that you cannot control the direction that your bullet will take once it enters the body of the BG. It could be you hit the guy COM, but the bullet penetrates his chest, and strikes the officer in a vital artery, killing them both.

Im not going to say that you shouldnt shoot him, or that he wouldnt deserve it. I will say however, that you had better be a 100% shooter in close combat high stress situations, because if you miss, or shoot through the BG and kill a LEO, you will have to answer for your actions, in criminal court, civil court, or both. It could cost you and your family more than you may know.

Questions will be posed as to why you acted the way you did. The lawyers will ask why a perfectly fit man choose to become a vigilante and try to take the law into his own hands and ended up killing.

If you are physically fit, able to fight HTH, or have other options available, then by all means use them. If there is not imminent danger of the officer being killed, your actions will come into question.

I dont mean to sound rash, but I deal with this stuff daily, and sometimes the "kill em all because theyre trash" method is counter productive and costly. Ive seen community leaders and meth-heads both attack LEO's one minute, and be crying piles of humanity the next.
 
#55 ·
If you are physically fit, able to fight HTH, or have other options available, then by all means use them. If there is not imminent danger of the officer being killed, your actions will come into question.

I dont mean to sound rash, but I deal with this stuff daily, and sometimes the "kill em all because theyre trash" method is counter productive and costly. Ive seen community leaders and meth-heads both attack LEO's one minute, and be crying piles of humanity the next.
I understand, and don't mean to diminish the validity of your experience.
I am just offering a different viewpoint.
I think it would be unwise for a person who is not trained in disarming techniques, or hand-to-hand combat, to attempt to get down and dirty with this suspect. I think that an attempt to muscle this out would be prone to disaster -- after all, even the trained cop is having a bad time of it -- and using a gun would be far less likely to end badly for the cop and the helpful civilian.
 
#45 · (Edited)
First of all I have a serious heart condition and cannot get involved in a phsysical struggle that could lead to my death. I reasonably will be in fear of the officer's life and my own should the BG manage to wrestle the officer's weapon from him and possibly use on both of us. Therefore I would verbaly warn the BG to comply with the officer and advise him if he continues to pursue the officers gun that I will shot him. If the BG fails to comply with my verbal demand then I would have no other choice to follow through with carefully placed shots from my weapon until the assailant is stopped. Having feared for the officer's life and my own. I probably really be in bad emotional and physical shape after such an altercation.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top