Talk on the radio brought up in my mind a situation that I didnt know right away how to resolve: Can you use lethal force to prevent a child from being abducted? Of course it might not be clear if something is a true abduction if you dont know the child--it could be horseplay or a parent dealing with an unruly kid, but if you KNEW the child was being abducted (your own kid etc) could you use lethal force?
Although I don't have kids, if I did and I was in such a situation, I would not hesitate for a milisecond. I'd rather face a court for murder than have a child taken away and potentially raped/killed. I don't care if the abductor is armed or not. If that child leaves your sight with the stranger, there's a good chance you'll never see him again.
This is one of the few times I'd say "screw the law, do what you need to do". Family comes first.
However, I don't think many juries would convict you for it, if the case was reasonably clean-cut.
Absolutely... I would rather face 12 than be looking and hoping that my child is still alive. I looked at NC law, and while it isn't clear, I believe it would be a technical violation, but I seriously doubt a conviction. I would never vote to convict under these circumstances myself though. I fee that a reasonable person would believe that the child is in risk of immediate serious bodily injury, so I call it justified.
Notwithstanding the provisions of ORS 161.209, a person is not justified in using deadly physical force upon another person unless the person reasonably believes that the other person is:
Committing or attempting to commit a felony involving the use or threatened imminent use of physical force against a person; or
Committing or attempting to commit a burglary in a dwelling; or
Using or about to use unlawful deadly physical force against a person. [1971 c.743 §23]
Can't possibly know that. One must assume that further violence is about to be done to a child ... my child. I won't allow that, no matter the cost to the BG. Even if it kills him.
If somebody tries to abduct my G/daughter the last thing they hear will be the sound of my 45,In Texas i have the right to us lethal force to prevent a kidnapping
I don't have kids but I can say with relative certainty that if someone was abducting my nieces or nephews I would not hesitate to shoot them and would be quite ok with facing a jury for doing so, even if the end result is going to prison. I can't even begin to imagine living with the fact that I might have been able to keep one of the little ones from harm but chose not to because I was afraid of what might happen to me if I did.
I don't have kids but I can say with relative certainty that if someone was abducting my nieces or nephews I would not hesitate to shoot them and would be quite ok with facing a jury for doing so, even if the end result is going to prison. I can't even begin to imagine living with the fact that I might have been able to keep one of the little ones from harm but chose not to because I was afraid of what might happen to me if I did.
Good to go in Michigan, although I believe the "OK" doesn't apply if the abductor is a parent or something, then you would have to otherwise believe the childs' life was in danger. I think it can be reasonably believed that a childs' life was in danger if a stranger was trying to leave with a kid, but I ain't on your jury.
Kidnapping is a Forceable Felony, you should be covered by the law. Honestly though... I wouldn't care much about the law if my child was in danger. I would kill someone trying to take my child.
If the BG is kidnapping my child, or for that matter any child that I am 110% sure is a kidnapping, he may very well find ventilation holes in the front, side, or even his back, because the child is not leaving as long as I am breathing and have ammo.
I wouldn't think there is a prosecutor good enough to get a conviction in this scenario. The only exception I can think where you might get jammed would be stopping a parental abduction. Even though a non-custodial parent is doing the kidnapping the circumstances might not help your case get an acquittal.
Otherwise I think you are in good shape to plug the guy/gal.
In Ohio I'd have to feel the child was in fear of being killed or very hurt. But lets not forget only about 100 abductions in the U.S.A are from true "strangers". The vast majority are from non-costodial parents and a few from "known family members and friends".
If we're talking about the creepy guy offering candy or puppies and trying to get the kid into the black van, all bets are off. I'll be judged by 12 then the unthinkable happening.
In CO, lethal force is allowed to prevent kidnapping.
Having said that...I have no children, and only have one friend that has one. I would have to be REALLY sure about the situation before I acted with my CC - READ - It would have to be that one kid and the abductor is someone I do not know.
Otherwise, my first act is to call 911, get description of the abductor and vehicle and attempt to detain (block exit) or follow until police arrive.
I would have to be REALLY sure about the situation before I acted with my CC - READ - It would have to be that one kid and the abductor is someone I do not know.
This is an important point. If not a child you know, then how would someone know for a fact that an abduction was occurring?
Getting in the middle of a husband/wife squabble often ends up with both turning on the responding police officer(s). Ask any LEO.
Getting in the middle of a screaming child and an adult at, say, a park, might be just as dangerous to do. Having been to many parks with young kids (babysitting with friends, etc), not a day goes by without a few of the kids at the park going haywire and the (presumed) parents having to dole out a little tough love. Sometimes this involves heading to the minivan for a "timeout." Unless the child is screaming about being abducted (and is thus old enough to know and name that), how exactly does one identify an actual abduction worthy of involvement, let alone force?
The attacker being unarmed really doesn't mean much when you're considering the safety of the child. The disparity of force "capability" between an adult and a child should be obvious. That being said, I remember reading somewhere that the average child killed by an abductor has something like 24 hours, or 48 hours to live. Time is absolutely critical when it comes to stopping them -- hence the nationwide amber alert systems.
Your worst case scenario would be that you "impede" someone who has a right to take the child. In that case, such a person is likely to respond favorably (from your perspective) to looking down the barrel of a gun and cooperate.
Having never seen an abduction, I expect it would be obvious.
In most states which have Castle Doctrine, it becomes null and void when a person, who is a parent or legal guardian, enters your Castle to retrieve their child.
Here in the people's republic of Massachusetts:wink:, lethal force would almost always result in court action. Having three children I can say, without any hesitation, that I would go to jail with a smile on my face for having done the right thing. Someday our legislators will legalize freedom again and we will ALL be able to defend ourselves without fear of imprisonment for doing so.
This is one of the biggest reasons I carry; that is for the protection of my two daughters. Everyone knows how most abductions turn out, I'd rather sit in front of a jury for protecting my child than to sit on the front pew at my childs funeral. An abduction is not a wait and see what happens kind of thing. If you are watching something like this, it could possibly be the very last time you see that child alive. Regardless of what the law says, as a parent it is your responsibility to protect your children as much as possible. Depending on the situation, I'm going to bust a cap.
That was exactly the thoughts running thru my head. I am not a parent yet but I do babysit my friends kids occasionally and they know that Uncle Keith would do almost anything for them. The same will be said about my kids when I am home long enough to have kids.
If it is my child, or a grandchild, or a family members child that I was absolutely positive was being abducted. I would do whatever was necessary to prevent it, including the use of deadly force.
A strange child on the street. I would probably keep my weapon holstered and call the police giving them all the details I could, including vehicle discription and licence number.
You have no way of knowing if it is truely an abduction or a unruly child not wanting to go. It could also be a parental custodial dispute, in which case you would be in a definite no win situation. Is the child being forcefully removed from the non custodial parent, or is it the other way around?
If it isn't your kids involved, how do you know what is happening?
I'm not questioning the applicability of the use of force to prevent a kidnapping...I just want to know how you are going to be able to determine the nature of the situation so you can apply the correct level of force.
Just because someone shouts "Stop that man, he took my baby!" doesn't mean it is so.
Maybe he is the custodial parent, the mother (who has a problem with being bi-polar and drinking) just didn't want to give the kids back that day as the court ordered, and decided "I'll fix you!!"...
Or maybe it really is a kidnapping.
How do you know what situation you are in so you can determine the correct response?
You may be dozens of yards away with your own kids, and suddenly a woman shouts "Stop that man, he took my baby!" while pointing toward a man with a 3 year old in his arms.
If he is a kidnapper, yeah, fine. He committed suicide by taking he kid but didn't have the grace to do it without borrowing your ammo...
But what if he isn't?
And what if you are with your kids as the only adult? Do you leave them to intercept the suspected kidnapper? Take your 4 or 5 year old into a potential gunfight?
Very likely, the abductor isn't a complete idiot and is schmoozing the child into being abducted, hence it won't be obvious at all. At best, what we're all left with (not knowing this child on the other side of the park) is one thing, and one thing only: note the license plate of the car and description of the car/occupants, then call 911/police to relate the story.
An instance in which you would have a good likelihood of knowing if something is a kidnapping or not is if you were assigned to watch the children at a church function.
If someone enters the area and talks to a child, then starts leading them off, that's more of a situation in which you know something isn't kosher.
Just be careful what you get into and how you get into it.
Like ANY other situation, being a third party makes it difficult to execute a hasty decision...however, attempt to make a hasty decision to kidnap my grandchild and I will 'execute'...errrr, make that 'stop the threat'...:yup:
The coroner would remove 16 rounds of .45 ACP 230 grain JHP out of a corpse (or suffering body) (8 from me and 8 from JD) and they'd have to pry me from the scene because I would have reloaded and I'd still be covering the body from a safe distance.
No one tries to take my child from me and gets away without getting at least shot at.
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