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What do you members think?

4K views 52 replies 33 participants last post by  bladenbullet 
#1 ·
i recently joined this forum and find it very interested, knowledgeable, and entertaining. The one issue that sticks with me is the issue of when to use your firearm. I sit and read many encounters that members here face and wonder why do they put themselves in those situations. I personally would not get in any situation that does not concern my family and myself. I feel you have to look at it from the point that you do not know all the information, you are seeing it from the moment you arrived. Who knows what happened before you came into the picture. Also, I feel that before we started CC it would have been a fist fight, now that we have a weapon we feel that we have to use it if some one gets in our face.
 
#2 ·
A few months or so ago, a fellow retiree and I decided to take and pass a 20-hour CCW class, this old friend and I started shooting again. I started buying, reading and studying these gun magazines, if only for those "it happened to me" and CCW stories, like those in this latest issue of "American Handgunner". Now, we go to [Bill Goodman] gun shows and stores, once more, talking with gun lovers and others, scanning the net to get what we can get, i.e., news, views and gun reviews on YOU TUBE. But, a word of warning, you too can sit and waste a lot of time online, not that this "research" hurts.
 
#3 ·
Some people may feel a moral obligation to help others who cannot help themselves. I personally will only get involved if it is to defend myself, MY property, or someone I'm with. As far as the fist fight thing, I'm not going to pull my gun on someone for things I would punch someone for. I doubt anyone else here would either. I also won't get in a fist fight if I'm carrying, which is most of the time. If I'm in a situation where I need to fight to defend myself, I will go to fists if it's an unarmed person attacking me and I know they wouldn't be able to severely injure me or take my life, but if they are armed or look like they would absolutely destroy me in a fist fight (disparity of force), I'm sticking to my guns.
 
#4 ·
If I'm in a situation where I need to fight to defend myself, I will go to fists if it's an unarmed person attacking me and I know they wouldn't be able to severely injure me or take my life
The only problem with this is that they may not be armed UNTIL they get the upper hand on you during the fight & you may end up looking down the barrel of your own gun :gah:
That is what i worry about while carrying & i must say it has helped my "hot-head" condition alot as i wont put myself in that situation if i can help it now :yup:
 
#9 ·
Excellent point. Knowing I'm armed has made me look at confrontations or putting myself in a confrontational situation, differently. I'm more apt to walk away from something I may not have before I started carrying.

By the way, one of the points my CCW instructor repeated a few times was, if you have to defend yourself or someone else and fatally wound or wound someone, but are cleared by law, there will be a civil suit no matter what and it will cost a whole lot of money to defend and if you lose, could cost you everything you own. That wouldn't stop me from defending myself, if I feel an "imminent threat", but not over a fist fight. Better to flee than fight sometimes.
 
#5 ·
Good point I hadn't thought about really, but if you were to draw instead on someone unarmed who is attacking you and there's no disparity of force, you may be taking a trip to jail.
 
#12 ·
In Tx you can use the threat of deadly force (pulling your gun) as a threat of force...so, in TX you'd be covered...
 
#8 ·
I feel like this....If I am carrying I am more responsible as I am more keenly aware of my "responsability that comes with carrying". For another way to put it, I am a far more aware driver on my motorcycle, watching what is going on behind, left, right and in front of me than when I am in my car, which is a much more "passive" experience to me...so with a gun, I am "keenly aware", and without, unfortunately, I am more passive....I hope this made sense!

So Idont go looking for trouble or looking to help, but I am more in tune to what is going on.
 
#10 ·
.............I personally would not get in any situation that does not concern my family and myself.............
If you can live with that, then that's between you and your conscience. Personally, I find it hard to understand how anyone can say unequivocally that they would not step in to help someone unknown to them. While I'm not going to step in between two groups of gangbangers going at each other, I know that if I saw someone severely beating a child, I'd step in. I know that if I saw three hoods beating down an old lady, I'd step in. I'd do this whether I was armed or not. I know I'd do this because I've intervened twice in my life to protect others and both times were long before Kansas had CC. If I have to defend myself in the courts, then so be it but I don't want to have to live with myself if an innocent died or was severely injured if I could have prevented it.

Hoss
 
#11 ·
Well "C9H13NO3" i guess the best medicine for this is too try not to have to get into a fist fight in the first place, but the big question remains on what the best & most legal way to handle it may be :confused:
Maybe an LEO can give us some good advice if your all the sudden faced with an explosive situation while carrying :rolleyes:
My plan i guess (whether or not its good) is too
1. try & avoid it all togeather
2. if they press the issue with me & dont calm down, pull your shirt over your pistol while gripping it firmly & telling them I dont want want trouble any more than you do right now so BACK AWAY
3. If they are feeling stupid after that :blink:
 
#15 ·
The way i look at it is my situational awareness is my primary self defense. A good percent of the self defense stories I read involve the CCer doing something stupid to get themselves in the situation. For example there have been several that have let their mouth and hot head escalate the situation or not leaving an area that seems unsafe. Personally I will use my weapon only when I fail to use my situational awareness or if i see a situation where it's needed. If i see someone on top of another with a knife. Regardless of the unknowns it's not hard to get an idea of what's going on in a situation. If it's a non life threatening situation then I dont get involved but in a life threatening situation i would feel morally obligated to step in
 
#16 ·
The people that put their self in that situation do it because they do not have a choice. I like to say that I wouldn't step in. Why put my family in that situation. But then again I know I could not stand by and watch something like the kid in Chicago that got beat to death with boards and what not.
 
#17 ·
I try to avoid all altercation. I would use my weapon for situation that were only life threaten or if others were in grave danger. I would never turn my back on a human being in need. Thats why I work were I work. BG are different these days not like in the past, they will kill you and your family members and not have a care in the world. Just watch some of the shows about gangbangers and see and listen how they think, you can't even comprehend.
 
#18 ·
I don't think anyone here would simply walk away from a group of hoods beating down an old lady, or an urban gang wailing on a school kid with a plank. Debating this issue is like the people who debate abortion by citing cases of rape or incest. Don't let the miniscule probabilities obscure the big picture.

I have seen folks here who think a one-day course, some cash (tax) for the county sheriff, and a $400 handgun makes them a mini-LEO or a super-hero-in-waiting. Personally, I refuse to use the oft-cited term "sheepdog" and I most certainly find the epithet "sheep" (as applied to non-carrying citizens) silly and arrogant. Your neighbors and friends may perceive their risks differently from you and choose not to carry. That doesn't make them fools.

If you think of yourself as a "sheepdog" for the local populace, you are asking for potential legal and most certainly moral problems. Keep the mindset that your ccw is for you and your family, and only if you are put in mortal danger by another human being or animal. Anything outside that strict interpretation is an opportunity to make a decision you may regret the rest of your life.
 
#22 ·
Whatever is right for you!

Being a "sheepdog" has nothing to do with being a "mini-LEO or a super hero in waiting". It is about having the balls to jump in and help another person, or even an animal that is in need. Whether it be a mugging, a drowning, a car wreck,...etc....etc...
I will do anything I can to help a "sheep", which is not a deragatory statement about someone to me, it simply implies that they may not be aware of, or be able to help themselves in the situation at hand.

If you are ever in need of help, and I am around...
you will be happy that I am proud to say "I AM A SHEEPDOG" and I WILL help you!:nutkick:
 
#19 ·
I'm with Hoss on this one, I could not turn and walk away from someone in trouble. I have in the past helped people in need and would do it again.
To each their own but I could not sleep if I witnessed something and did nothing to help. Each case is different but to do absolutely nothing goes against my most basic instinct to help.
 
#20 ·
I to will not let anyone abuse an individual. A senior citizen, young child, it is not right that they can come to harm. I am a transpant from NYC, and you members know how NYC and CC goes. Now, I live in Missouri, and things are a whole lot different here! I recently received my CC permit and I take the whole behavior serious. This is the reason a posted, I wanted to get different views!
 
#24 ·
We have members here of all different ages and differing degrees of physical fitness.

Some of our members have health and/or disability concerns.

Some members are married & have children.

Some members are single and do not have children at home.

All of the above and many other factors will likely (in some way) influence if a person interjects themselves into some scenario that is not directly their own.

Everybody should give the possibility some deep thought and find their own answers within themselves.

MUCH would also depend on the exact event that is going down.

For instance if a good guy DC member is 60 years old (in average physical condition) and is armed with only a six shot revolver and a gang of 9 thugs are beating on some individual...it might be much more prudent to call 911 than to start attempting to pick off bad guys in sharpshooter fashion.

In that scenario (and if all goes flawlessly) the good guy would be at least 3 cartridges shy of making it home alive. :biggrin2:
 
#25 ·
I got this in an email from USCCA the other day

I was out walking in our neighborhood a couple of days ago around dusk. I was almost through with my walk, when I noticed a couple of girls, probably around 5 or 6 years old, walking toward me about a block away. Now our neighborhood is a middle-class, blue-collar, very safe neighborhood, so nothing unusual about this.

A few seconds later, an earlier-model small sedan with faded paint stopped by the girls, and a man emerged and approached the girls. Still nothing particularly unusual, but I became more interested. The man was wearing dirty jeans, work boots, a dirty T-shirt and a black baseball cap. The man exchanged a few words with the girls, and then grabbed one of them by the arm. She tried to fall to the ground kicking and screaming, and her friend ran away.

The man dragged the screaming girl around to the driver side of the car and pushed her in, and then slid in behind her. Now I was on high alert. As the vehicle started towards me, I had by then approached within about 50 yards and drawn my Glock 26. I had a clear shot at the driver's head through the windshield. As I took aim, I remembered that the Texas Penal Code gives one the right to protect the lives of third parties. Specifically, Section 9.33 reads:

"A person is justified in using force or deadly force against another to protect a third person if:

(1) under the circumstances as the actor reasonably believes them to be, the actor would be justified under Section 9.31 or 9.32 in using force or deadly force to protect himself against the unlawful force or unlawful deadly force he reasonably believes to be threatening the third person he seeks to protect; and

(2) the actor reasonably believes that his intervention is immediately necessary to protect the third person.
The Texas CHL course is very good at educating students about the legal ramifications of concealed carry, and I had an excellent instructor. But our instructor also hit very hard on the point that we should all decide whether we would be willing to risk going to jail and depriving our families of a husband and father for many years over the death of an innocent bystander in the attempt to protect a third party.

All of this was going through my head. This all seemed to be happening in slow motion, and I couldn't believe what I was seeing. Rather than shooting, I lowered my gun and got the license number of the car as it went by me. I used my cell phone to call 911 and report the abduction. Chills went through my body as a few hours later, an officer called me to let me know that they had located the car and driver at his residence a few blocks away.

It turned out that the man was the girl's father and he stopped to pick her up on her way home because dinner was waiting. The girl had other ideas - she was determined to walk home with her next-door girl-friend.
It is the precise reason why I don’t get involved unless I know for 100% sure what is going on.

I carry a firearm to defend myself and my family as a last resort and I pity the “sheep dog” who thinks I’m a sheep under his care.
 
#31 ·
... I carry a firearm to defend myself and my family as a last resort and I pity the “sheep dog” who thinks I’m a sheep under his care.
If you are sure that you never will need that other people help you or your family in any circumstances, then you are a very lucky person. I carry daily, but a firearm does not make feel like Superman. But that is me; just a “sheep”.
 
#26 ·
I'm in my 40's and have had a CHL since 93. I'm proud to say that I've never needed to put my hand on my gun nor have I been in a fist fight since I was a teenager.

I understand what the OP is saying. Your gun doesn't make you 10' tall and bullet proof. At least not to me.
 
#28 ·
If a member of your family was assaulted by an offender while you are not present, would you like that other CCWer defend him/her? I guess you should.
If my wife is ever in that situation the CCW permit closest and in the best position to help her would be........her

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
#29 ·
Every one has a different reason they started carrying, I did because I refuse to be a victim of violence in any form - this extends to my family and friends. I would not hesitate to help some one if I thought that I could, and I don't leave any options off of the table because you never know what situation you might find yourself in. I am prepared to kill if need be, but hope I dont have to.

R
 
#33 ·
If you are sure that you never will need that other people help you or your family in any circumstances, then you are a very lucky person.
I'm not sure of that, I just don't expect it. That's why I carry a firearm that's also why my wife carries a firearm.

I don’t carry a firearm to protect the people around me they chose to leave themselves defenseless. They’ll be grateful as hell when you do it but they won’t help pay your legal fees. They won’t take up a collection so your wife can keep her house after paying for your funeral. And they sure as hell won’t pay for your hospital fees and physical therapy after you slip on a patch of ice running to the rescue .

I'm sorry if that sounds cynical or selfish but it's reality. I have a family to take care of. I have bills to pay and I have people that expect me to be there for them. My first duty is to them. Does that mean I won't help the nieghbor shovel their walk or load a roto tiller into their truck:? Of course not.

What I won't do is engage in a gunfight where everyone is liable to get very badly hurt unless there is no other option open. I certainly won't do so on behalf of some random stranger when I'm not in posession of all the facts
 
#34 · (Edited)
Intervening can be a very dicey thing - because it's easy to be wrong.

The screaming kid being pulled by an aggressive man into a car that suddenly has stopped could be a kidnap victim or a child who's father found him after he left the yard for the FIFTH time that month, and is angry.

The guy running out of the store that someone on the street has screamed "robbery!" about- with that gun in his hand, may be the owner running out to see where the BG took off to.

The scrufty guy with the gun at the head of man in the fine clothes kneeling in the street, could be an undercover Fed arresting a high-stakes drug king-pin after a car chase.

A gang beating a woman is unmistakable it seems, and I would have no ethical choice but to intervene with my gun, pull it at least while calling 911.

In short, there are instances when it's appropriate, but it better be or we'll have a lifetime of guilt and likely prison time for shooting the father, or shooting the store owner, or shooting the FBI Agent.
 
#35 ·
There's some excellent points being made here and in short, I'll line up with cvHoss and Rottkeeper. Whether you consider yourself a sheepdog or a sheep is irrelevant in a moment of crises. IMO, that's when the animal in each of us comes out and we either decide to fight or evade.

IMO, there's nothing wrong with defending your fellow man, it's been going on since the dawn of time. If you're not into it so be it, but judging others for their willingness to defend a total strangers life or well being is ridiculous and without merit. I for one am glad there's folks like us out there and America was founded on the same principles. :hand10:
 
#39 ·
There's some excellent points being made here and in short, I'll line up with cvHoss and Rottkeeper. Whether you consider yourself a sheepdog or a sheep is irrelevant in a moment of crises. IMO, that's when the animal in each of us comes out and we either decide to fight or evade.

IMO, there's nothing wrong with defending your fellow man, it's been going on since the dawn of time. If you're not into it so be it, but judging others for their willingness to defend a total strangers life or well being is ridiculous and without merit. I for one am glad there's folks like us out there and America was founded on the same principles. :hand10:
I don't believe that anyone is"judging" anyone for their willingness to defend a total strangers life, neither does it have anything to do with sheep, sheepdog, or anything animal. And taking into serious consideration that the principles that America was founded on no longer exist in today's mainstream society, it's ridiculous and without merit to ignore the extreme and almost unimaginable consequences that one, and one's family, will suffer for their willingness to defend others in today's anti-gun society and a judicial system VOID of common sense and principles you mention. "Animal" is absent of common sense, the inability to make choices pending consequences, going on instinct instead of intelligence. It has nothing to do with any decision to simply fight or evade. Our prisons are full of people who acted out of animal instinct, and principle, regarding their fellow man, I choose not to be one of them. There are unmitigated circumstances that justify defending other than yourself when licensed to carry. It is our personal responsibility to remain within the STRICT boundaries of those circumstances and laws applied to CCW, not our principles. I'm not a caped crusader or John Wayne. I don't carry to protect or defend anyone except myself or my immediate family..PERSONAL defense/protection. These total strangers have the same rights and the choice in relation to CCW. Should they choose not to carry, my conscience is not subject to their poor choice or their consequences.
 
#36 ·
I have to agree with Hamlet. This is just like a original post, you just do not know what the " STORY" is when you arrive, but you will find out if you branish your weapon and YOU decide to use it. I remember a moment in my life as I was walking down the streets in NYC one day. Here I come to a situation with a man beating a woman. I made a decision to try to stop this beating only to be verbally assaulted by the female to mind my ******* business. I was shocked, now I was the BG, who who have thought!
Remember what A, Lincoln said, I would rather stay quiet and say nothing and make people think I am dumb than speak and prove than right. I my be a little off in his quote but you understand ahat I am saying, I would rather stay outside a situation ( called the right people) than get into it and change my life forever. Now remember you would handle every situation differently, just be very very cautious!
 
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