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Without good and sufficient reason

7K views 52 replies 32 participants last post by  One of Many 
#1 ·
I copied this from Virginia's code's. What I'd like to know is, what's different about this than the reason to carry always? For no other reason I have to get from the church doors to my car.

18.2-283. Carrying dangerous weapon to place of religious worship.

If any person carry any gun, pistol, bowie knife, dagger or other dangerous weapon, without good and sufficient reason, to a place of worship while a meeting for religious purposes is being held at such place he shall be guilty of a Class 4 misdemeanor.

(Code 1950, § 18.1-241; 1960, c. 358; 1962, c. 411; 1975, cc. 14, 15.)
 
#2 ·
There is no legal definition of what is "good and sufficient reason"....

However, I have a wife and two kids....thus, three good and sufficient reasons.
 
#4 ·
Sounds like a sufficient reason to me

2 teens shot during church service in Richmond

(02-14) 20:05 PST RICHMOND -- Three young men with black sweatshirt hoods pulled over their heads walked into a packed church service in Richmond on Sunday, where one of them opened fire and wounded two teenagers sitting in the pews, police said.
The three suspects - who may have been juveniles - fled after the brash 12:30 p.m. attack at New Gethsemane Church of God in Christ, as the singing of the choir was replaced by frightened screams, said Richmond police Sgt. Bisa French.
The two victims, a 14-year-old boy and a 19-year-old man, were hospitalized and were expected to survive. However, French said, they were not willing to help investigators try to track down their assailants.
"The key people aren't being cooperative," she said.
A church deacon who was present during the shooting, Charles Miller, said one of the victims was struck in the leg and the other in the shoulder. It was not clear, both he and French said, whether they were intended targets.
Miller said some of the more than 120 church members who witnessed the shooting told him the suspects had paced up and down an aisle - apparently looking for one or more targets - before shooting the victims near the back of the church.
Church members "were going to ask them to remove their hoods" before the shooting, he said.
"I was listening to the choir and all of a sudden there was a 'pop pop pop pop pop,' " Miller said. "Everyone hit the floor. I didn't know the shooting was inside the church at first, until I heard all of the hollering and screaming."
The shooting, at 2100 Roosevelt Ave., comes amid a violent beginning to the year in Richmond, which has already recorded seven homicides. The city is still recovering from a violent gang rape outside a high school homecoming dance last year that made national headlines.
"Obviously it was a very brazen attack - in broad daylight during a church service," French said. "It's very unusual. You'd think a church is a safe place that people can go no matter what circumstances they have in their life or where they are in their life. After today, obviously not."
French said investigators were talking to witnesses and believe some of them can identify the suspects. But French said the congregants - apparently scared to get involved - were unwilling to look at photo lineups.
"I don't understand," French said. "Where do you draw the line?"
She said witnesses to violent crime in Richmond often believe they will face repercussions on the streets, but rarely do.
Miller, 64, said he was deeply troubled by the shooting, which showed a lack of respect for his church and its members.
"It's terrible when you come to the house of the Lord and start doing this," he said. "It's just something you don't do."
But after police emptied the church and processed the crime scene inside, Miller said, he and some of the congregants returned to finish services, which had begun at 11 a.m.
"We went on and had church anyway," Miller said. "We were giving thanks that nobody was killed. We wanted to go and serve the Lord anyway."


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#6 ·
The two victims, a 14-year-old boy and a 19-year-old man, were hospitalized and were expected to survive. However, French said, they were not willing to help investigators try to track down their assailants
It was not clear, both he and French said, whether they were intended targets.
Oh come on!!!

Not only were they the intended targets I'd bet my butt they know exactly who shot them and have the good sense to keep their mouths shut
 
#8 ·
To be figured out later by county prosecutors, judges and juries who watch Oprah and hold grudges, and by boohooing sensitive lawyers who are more caring and compassionate and generous than me, you see...at least when they are performing for the cameras and media people on my TV screen. "He was a good boy."
 
#10 ·
Originally posted by Bubbiesdad Gang related?
Doesn't it sound that way to you?
 
#11 ·
That's what I was thinking, just wondering if anyone else did.
 
#12 ·
In this church incident, it's not the 'gang-related' I care about, it's the SHOOTING...period!
The fact that someone could/would shoot a firearm in church is "good and sufficient reason" for me to carry there.:comeandgetsome::yup:
 
#13 ·
Anytime & Anywhere seem to be good and sufficient reason.
 
#15 ·
I have three words New Life Church

How much more good and sufficient reason do you need?
 
#17 ·
i think the reason why they dont want you to carry in a chuch is it just that a church, is there a loop hole to that law, as in if you were givin permission to do so from the paster?? If not then dont break the law and lose the right to have your CCW/CPL.....
 
#18 ·
Church is a body of people...not a building. BG don't seem to mind shooting at a church.

The VA law was purposefully vague....because heaven forbid someone in the General Assembly make a definitive stance on self-defense in a church....because no one wants to face the fact it happens....and it's better to post a sign than actually do something in self-defense.

The law isn't black and white.
 
#22 ·
Here, it's legal unless they post the doors.
 
#23 ·
So ambiguous its unenforceable. If you look at the history of the law you might find it was passed after the War of Northern Aggression and reconstruction as a system of laws designed to hobble certain newly freed minorities.
 
#24 ·
My "Good and sufficient reason" is that I enjoy living, and I've become addicted to it. I just don't believe that I can quit, without serious problems. And I don't think that any "rehab" or intervention will help me to break that addiciton. I carry my gun, legally, of course, because I intend to do whatever it takes to continue my addiction.
 
#25 ·
My Pastor knows I carry and it has been given his blessing. That is what makes it legal here in Texas. My reason is the 2A and the BG doesn't care about legalities.
 
#26 ·
Does not history and the Bible teach us that good and sufficient reason has been around since, oh let me think, THE BEGINNING OF MAN! AS IN CAIN AND ABEL! sorry to yell but gee wizz.. i just can't even try to understand that kind of thinking, and praise the LORD i never will..I can can give you plenty of scriptures to back this up.
 
#39 ·
Unfortunately, you will be tried in a court of law, not by your congregation. God may have final judgement, but only after the state puts you away for a number of years. Let's not try to confuse apples with oranges. It's a separation of church and state matter. Religious beliefs and laws of the state are not one and the same.
 
#27 ·
In the words of Mr T, "I pity the fool" who tries this in our church. At any given service there are 8-10 men (and a few women :image035:) who are armed. Our pastor knows he's the best protected pastor in town. All of our outside doors have someone standing by them during the service, and the parking lot as well.
 
#28 ·
My good and sufficient reason is easy. I am one of the pastors, it is my job to shepherd the flock and shepherds were armed against those that would do the flock harm. My armament is just different for a different enemy.
 
#33 ·
If any person carry any gun, pistol, bowie knife, dagger or other dangerous weapon, without good and sufficient reason, to a place of worship while a meeting for religious purposes is being held at such place he shall be guilty of a Class 4 misdemeanor.

(Code 1950, § 18.1-241; 1960, c. 358; 1962, c. 411; 1975, cc. 14, 15.)
Ok, so whats the penalty for a class 4 misdemeanor? $25 fine, no jail time, no loss of right to carry?

If it's such a minor penalty I say carry, don't get caught. If you have to use your gun to save someones life maybe they will be gratefull enough to pay the fine.

Of course I guess if you did use the gun, there's your proof of good and sufficient reason. sounds to me as if it's unenforcable as long as you don't get made.
 
#35 ·
Satisfy the Law and load up with Silver Bullets to place inside the BG's foolish enough to come in looking for a place to do Evil.
 
#36 ·
"without good and sufficient reason" is one of those clauses that so often gets verdits thrown out or laws ruled unconstitutional for being to vague and inspecific by the higher courts.
Who is or can determine what's "good and sufficient" unless that is spelled out in the law?
 
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