[mcgyver210]

BOY OHH BOY!!!

Why do people always preface cop bashing or end a cop bashing rant with "THERE ARE GOOD ONES" or "NOT THE GOOD COPS" People tend to more remember the negative experiences they have with any group... Including police. I am probably one of the most strident, and vocal opponentsto the militerization of the police, and police abuses. But these are the exceptions not the rule. Most police officers are honest, and want to adhere to the rules. Most of what people complain about the police is more politics. Judges are elected... Only a judge can issue a no knock provision into a warrant. All that hut hut hut crap wearing a cross between military, terrorist, and ninja clothing and weapons is nothing more than a show. An attempt tp project an image of intimidation. Fery few street cops use it or buy into it. But local politicians use it to show that they are tough on crime.

As I said in another post. I spent the greater part of my adult life working as a police officer. During the course of my career I have served hundreds of warrants. I could count on one hand the number of no knock endorsements I've gotten. Someone mentioned old fashion police work. Well IMO thats the answer. Not dressing up like dog the bounty hunter. Really bad guys are not at all impressed with that foolishness. But chicks dig it...

The police are like everyone else human. They are going to make mistakes. They may even serve on the wrong address... it can happen. This law allowes for the people in the wrong address to engage the police with deadly force? This my friends is a recepe for a disaster. I'd like a link where I can read the law word for word.

No this LAW will protect you against being charged/convicted with Attempted/Murder of a LEO even when they make a mistake as it so fondly is called when they enter the wrong address & injure or Murder innocent victims. The law isn't the recipe for disaster, really the No-Knock Warrant is the recipe for disaster. Everyone always says you can't win or survive against an illegal armed assault but we all know this isn't a cut & dry answer in the real world.

 

[Spirit51]

This law doesn't mean squat. As a homeowner I am still faced with "is it a LEO mistake or a band of BG". If I KNOW it is LEO....I put up my hands and hope they don't shoot my Basset Hound, but how can I be sure? I feel very safe from this in my community because it is tight and the LEOs know us. But stuff happens. A address mistake with the Highway patrol who doesn't know us. Can happen. If I shoot a LEO when I am in my home and not knowing it is LEO and knowing I am not a wanted criminal...I believe that is dependable in a court of law (if I live that long). Intent is the key. I didn't intend to kill a LEO, I thought I was being invaded by criminals. This to me is a nightmare I hope I never see.

 

[Secret Spuk]

No this LAW will protect you against being charged/convicted with Attempted/Murder of a LEO even when they make a mistake as it so fondly is called when they enter the wrong address & injure or Murder innocent victims. The law isn't the recipe for disaster, really the No-Knock Warrant is the recipe for disaster. Everyone always says you can't win or survive against an illegal armed assault but we all know this isn't a cut & dry answer in the real world.

It's hard fir any law to protect a dead man. If the police accidentally enter your home in force... And you respond with deadly force.... Do you seriously think your going to survive? As I see it this law is a knee jerk response to another law limiting a persons response what they believe is a police mistake. The spirit of the original law is not to deny a citizen the right to protect himself his family or his property. The law is similar to many other states. A person may not resist an arrest the believe to be illegal. After an arrest is made or an indightment filed, or a warrant issued the remedy lies in the courts. This law is to bring legal disputes before a court. The arrest my very well be illegal. The warrant may very well be flawed, or even based in fraud. The remedy is in the courts. A line must be drawn between violence and order. This is such a line that's drawn with bias toward the police. The police can and will always meet force with force, and deadly force with deadly force. Knowing this the legislature seeks to protect the average citizen from possible unwarrented or unjustified force by restricting by law the citizen's use of force Vs the police. This actually put's the entire burden on the police. The police can justify use of deadly force against deadly force no matter what the circumstance of the arrest or warrant. But the police can not justify raiding the wrong home, or arresting a person who commited no crime. And in both case the citizen victim is alive to collect damages, or be made whole again. Hard to make a dead man whole again.

Well thats my understanding of the matter.

 

[mcgyver210]

It's hard fir any law to protect a dead man. If the police accidentally enter your home in force... And you respond with deadly force.... Do you seriously think your going to survive? As I see it this law is a knee jerk response to another law limiting a persons response what they believe is a police mistake. The spirit of the original law is not to deny a citizen the right to protect himself his family or his property. The law is similar to many other states. A person may not resist an arrest the believe to be illegal. After an arrest is made or an indightment filed, or a warrant issued the remedy lies in the courts. This law is to bring legal disputes before a court. The arrest my very well be illegal. The warrant may very well be flawed, or even based in fraud. The remedy is in the courts. A line must be drawn between violence and order. This is such a line that's drawn with bias toward the police. The police can and will always meet force with force, and deadly force with deadly force. Knowing this the legislature seeks to protect the average citizen from possible unwarrented or unjustified force by restricting by law the citizen's use of force Vs the police. This actually put's the entire burden on the police. The police can justify use of deadly force against deadly force no matter what the circumstance of the arrest or warrant. But the police can not justify raiding the wrong home, or arresting a person who commited no crime. And in both case the citizen victim is alive to collect damages, or be made whole again. Hard to make a dead man whole again.

Well thats my understanding of the matter.

You should not be able to be charged with any crime when a LEO or LEOs make a mistake. I remember a story were a local police dept tried unsuccessfully to illegally enter a innocent mans appartment. After it was all settled they admitted they were at wrong Appartment yet the innocent victim was charged with trumped up charges to cover up the so called mistake to do with resisting & injuring the real Criminals/LEOs making a mistake. So yes you can live against a LEO Armed assault.

Oh & no matter what excuse is used a mistake of this nature involving a Illegal invasion is "MURDER" & no one will convince me otherwise.

Citizens have enough to worry about with Bounty Hunters, Repo-Thieves, Real Criminals etc etc breaking down their doors, we shouldn't have to worry about the Good Guys making a mistake.

 

[Crowman]

This is a law that you don't even want to consider using. However if you do consider using it if the occasion arises you might want to do the following now:

1. Buy a nice ($$$$) life insurance policy on yourself for someone you like

2. Pre-pay for your funeral

3. Update/make will

4. Let everyone know that you will be crazy enough to shoot at law enforcement in such a situation

 

[Chevy-SS]

No this LAW will protect you against being charged/convicted with Attempted/Murder of a LEO even when they make a mistake as it so fondly is called when they enter the wrong address & injure or Murder innocent victims. The law isn't the recipe for disaster, really the No-Knock Warrant is the recipe for disaster. Everyone always says you can't win or survive against an illegal armed assault but we all know this isn't a cut & dry answer in the real world.

Amen to that. :congrats:

No-Knock warrants should basically NEVER be used; except in true, dire emergencies. Nowadays (at 70,000 to 80,000 annually), they are way too routine, and that's very bad for citizens IMHO.

-

 

[TedBeau]

I'm still trying to figure out how your supposed to tell if it an illegal entry or not! Do you ask for a warrent before you draw and fire? I don't think I would take a chance on firing on a bunch of police in uniform breaking down my door because I figure it's an illegal entry. If they are coming through the door armed I am going to comply with their commands. If they have the wrong house we can sort it out once their guns are no longer trained on me.

 

[Secret Spuk]

Once again... Not very often, but the police do make mistakes. Sometimes fatal ones. I had this same conversation with a few friends... Another retired cop put it this way. Do people run red lights on purpose? No they dont... sometimes they make a mistake. Could running a red light cause injury and loss of life? Of course! When a person get's caught running a red light do they want forgiveness?. Most do. Will they accept some constructive discretion on the part of the cop? I think anyone would. Why then are the police not afforded the same considerations? Is a person any less dead in a red light traffic accident than the person involved with a no knock gone wrong? Was either more preventable? What happens more often and is a bigger problem?

I'm not justifying any mistaken wrong doing by the police... I'm just saying that the police are human and will make mistakes like anyone else. I'm saying the remdies for running a red light is in the courts as the remedy for police mistakes is in the courts. Not shooting it out with the police.

 

[Chad Rogers]

I'm still trying to figure out how your supposed to tell if it an illegal entry or not! Do you ask for a warrent before you draw and fire? I don't think I would take a chance on firing on a bunch of police in uniform breaking down my door because I figure it's an illegal entry. If they are coming through the door armed I am going to comply with their commands. If they have the wrong house we can sort it out once their guns are no longer trained on me.

I look forward to reading about the 'man the barricades against the jack booted thugs' guys in the morning news.

 

[mlr1m]

This is a law that you don't even want to consider using. However if you do consider using it if the occasion arises you might want to do the following now:

1. Buy a nice ($$$$) life insurance policy on yourself for someone you like

2. Pre-pay for your funeral

3. Update/make will

4. Let everyone know that you will be crazy enough to shoot at law enforcement in such a situation

I for one would not shoot it out with police as I am an honest citizen and have given the police no reason to invade my home. I might however shoot it out with someone breaking in as I would assume that they were bad guys who wished to do me harm.
I would rule out that the people breaking in were police because they have no reason to make a forced entry to my home.

If through no fault of my own the police did break in because of a mistake on their part and lives were lost because of my belief that they were bad guys should I be charged? This seems to be what the law addresses. If its an illegal entry should it matter who is doing it?

If I am breaking a law then I agree that I should not be able to use self defense or castle law to justify harming police.
If on the other hand if I am not breaking any laws I should not have to give up my right to self defense when being attacked regardless of who the person attacking works for. I should not be charges with a crime for defending myself when I have done nothing to invite the attack.

Michael

 

[mlr1m]

I'm still trying to figure out how your supposed to tell if it an illegal entry or not! Do you ask for a warrent before you draw and fire? I don't think I would take a chance on firing on a bunch of police in uniform breaking down my door because I figure it's an illegal entry. If they are coming through the door armed I am going to comply with their commands. If they have the wrong house we can sort it out once their guns are no longer trained on me.

I believe the intent of this law is to protect citizens from being charged when they do not know that it is the police who are doing the home invasion. If you are waken from a sound sleep in the middle of the night by your doors being kicked in and many men yelling and screaming you should not be charged with a crime for protecting yourself if you have done nothing to provoke the attack.

Michael

 

[mcgyver210]

I'm still trying to figure out how your supposed to tell if it an illegal entry or not! Do you ask for a warrent before you draw and fire? I don't think I would take a chance on firing on a bunch of police in uniform breaking down my door because I figure it's an illegal entry. If they are coming through the door armed I am going to comply with their commands. If they have the wrong house we can sort it out once their guns are no longer trained on me.

Not to long ago a house in my area was invaded by men in full tactical gear & the occupants didn't resist at all or even go to a safe room because they assumed they were Police. They weren't Police & the way I remember it there were injuries. So will I assume anyone is Police at wrong address if they are trying to break in? NO NO NO I wont.

As for me being murdered for no reason by their mistake in my home that might happen but I will not go down without a fight. Also a few have said you can't win but that is a very arrogant stance since many people now days have home defense in place, reinforced security & even safe rooms. Oh & has anyone noticed some of the arsenals people here have at the ready? Come-on we aren't all sitting ducks now days with so many seeing what has been happening with


P.S. Lucky for me I live in an area with a smaller Police force & I know many of them including the Swat Guys which haven't made mistakes like this scenario we are talking about.

 

[whoppo]

While I certainly agree there should be legal protections for homeowners who are unlucky enough to be on a receiving end of a misplaced no-knock "invasion", I doubt it would often play out in favor of the homeowner... that's just how things are.

I live in a town where the CCW rate is now somewhere around 25% of the adult residents. The local LE is very supportive of 2A Rights and would certainly expect a significant percentage of residents to be armed in one way or another... hopefully exercising appropriate precautions should they need to kick in a door or two (for legitimate reasons of course).

Should they find the need to pay an unannounced visit to my home it would probably not be a complete surprise as they would first encounter the photo-electric / magnetic mass sensors at the far end of the driveway, motion sensing lights and cameras covering the driveway and house entry points, pressure pads under the porch flooring, steel doors/frames and the flock of ducks that quacks up a storm when anyone enters "their" yard
I've tried to sneak up on the house without tripping any alerts and even knowing where everything is I cannot. (and no, we're not really paranoid, we just value our privacy )

 

[Chad Rogers]

Hypocritical mantra: 'I am all about protecting my family, so I'm gonna get into a shootout with known police and get them all killed. Because I'm all about protecting my family.'

Even liberals don't have that bizarre a thought process...

 

[ctr]

Once again... Not very often, but the police do make mistakes. Sometimes fatal ones. I had this same conversation with a few friends... Another retired cop put it this way. Do people run red lights on purpose? No they dont... sometimes they make a mistake. Could running a red light cause injury and loss of life? Of course! When a person get's caught running a red light do they want forgiveness?. Most do. Will they accept some constructive discretion on the part of the cop? I think anyone would. Why then are the police not afforded the same considerations? Is a person any less dead in a red light traffic accident than the person involved with a no knock gone wrong? Was either more preventable? What happens more often and is a bigger problem?

I'm not justifying any mistaken wrong doing by the police... I'm just saying that the police are human and will make mistakes like anyone else. I'm saying the remdies for running a red light is in the courts as the remedy for police mistakes is in the courts. Not shooting it out with the police.

Same consideration, seriously, are you for real? IT IS MY HOME. MY HOME. You have no rights in my home. No right to be there. No right to search it. No right to kick in my door unannounced. MY HOME. Police have to be held to a higher standard because they are entrusted with so much power. Consideration does not enter into it, and the comparision is crap. On the one hand the civilian made a mistake. On the other hand the paid professional made a huge mistake. Running a red light in no way is justification for breaking into the wrong house.

 

[ksholder]

As I see it this law is a knee jerk response to another law limiting a persons response what they believe is a police mistake.

You need new glasses. This law was a direct result of the IN Supremes ruling that the good citizens of IN had NO 4A rights and that government officials could basically come and go in the citizens homes at will. At least one sheriff noted, with relief, that he could do whatever he wanted. The legislature responded and told the cops that their rights were not superior to those of a regular citizen.

 

[ksholder]

Only a judge can issue a no knock provision into a warrant.

Wrong again. The Patriot Act allows federal agents to sign their own warrants. This was what King George's army was doing that gave us the 4A. Now the 4A has been obviated and federal agents can do what King George's army used to do.

 

[ksholder]

Once again... Not very often, but the police do make mistakes. Sometimes fatal ones. I had this same conversation with a few friends... Another retired cop put it this way. Do people run red lights on purpose? No they dont... sometimes they make a mistake. Could running a red light cause injury and loss of life? Of course! When a person get's caught running a red light do they want forgiveness?. Most do. Will they accept some constructive discretion on the part of the cop? I think anyone would. Why then are the police not afforded the same considerations? Is a person any less dead in a red light traffic accident than the person involved with a no knock gone wrong? Was either more preventable?

Yes, one is a planned event, the other an accident. Clearly planned events could be easily prevented. Accidents can be reduced by paying more attention, but their eradication, while desirable, is not likely nor totally controllable.

What happens more often and is a bigger problem?

I am not sure which happens more frequently, but the bigger problem is clearly the abrogation of one of the BOR - the 4A. Yes, if you are the dead guy, you are just as dead either way, but in the accident, it is largely luck of the draw. In the NKR, it is the result of a planned government operation that should likely never have been planned and was then carried out carelessly.

 

[ares338]

I hope it never happens to me because I have my .40 cal right beside me on the nightstand. They had better yell...COP...really loud and that may not be enough to cease aggression on my part.

 

[tacman605]

Well once again this topic has morphed into one big "they better not come into my house" thread.

You cannot combine the the topics.
First officers serving a legal search warrant, issued by a judge, on the right house, be it yours or your neighbors, have every legal right to be there plain and simple. If you are the subject of an investigation leading to a search warrant YOUR HOME can and will be searched and evidence of a crime will be gathered as long as it is done within the scope of the law and you standing up yelling you can't be in MY HOUSE will not amount to a hill of beans.

Just like standing on the side of the road argueing with the officer about a ticket is not the place and time neither is it the place and time to argue the legalities of a search warrant while they are standing in your living room.

The second part of this debate is a totally different subject. Should officers make a mistake and hit the wrong house then yes they should be liable for their mistake and anything that happens but it is still a mistake but there is a big difference between the two and you cannot combine them.

Laws like this have there pros and cons and I would hate to be the first one to be the test case. Many folks quote the stand your ground laws as protecting them from prosecution in their states in regards to a crime being committed against them but as we have seen these cases are no longer cut and dried they are being picked apart and any flaw is being jumped on.

You will be damned either way the situation works out.