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Originally Posted by SelfDefense
Yes, you can be asked for ID at any time. And, n this case, it was not unreasonable.
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Yes it was. There was no suspicion of a crime. There was no RAS. The underlying basis for everything that happened was police ignorance of the law. It was COMPLETELY unreasonable.
Who cares that the police "can" ask for anything, anytime? We have laws that limit police pushiness, and as Americans we have an obligation to hold that line.
Here, the line is trivially easy to see. There was no crime, and as soon as the police saw that, the investigation is over. Anything that happens after that is gratuitous and abusive. When the invalid ID request was turned down, there was no legal basis to cuff the patron and fling him in the back of a police car.
You seem to not factor in the fact that the police were ignorant of the law, and indeed broke the law, in your considerations. You also seem to be unable to distinguish between a legitimate investigation -- the police show up, and there's RAS of a crime -- and an illegitimate one -- police show up, there's manifestly no crime, but the police treat everyone like suspects anyway, up to and including mistreating patrons in a way you're not even allowed to treat suspects.
There was clearly no crime, and innocent patrons were treated in a way it is illegal to treat criminals.
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I simply cannot fathom why anyone would not simply show a drivers license. This mythical 'right to privacy' is just a sham for those who want to be, simply stated, a petulant child.
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And I simply cannot fathom how such submissiveness to any obnoxious authority figure, no matter how much in the wrong, has become so pervasive in this country.
Your stated mindset is the "abusive cop mentality" at its very worst.
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No, the bottom line is that the patrons were obstructing a police investigation. They failed to comply with the simplest of courteous discourse and they were treated badly because of it.
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Once again, you fail to grasp the crucial distinction: this was NOT a legitimate investigation, and from the person who was actually there, the police discourse was hardly courteous (did you even read his post?). There was no actual crime. There was no actual offense. There was no RAS of
anything. The notion that there was a crime, hence that the patrons had to be treated like suspects, existed solely in the misinformed minds of the police on the scene, not in reality.
Again: this was a roust, not an investigation.
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Do you think it is a good thing to obstruct police as long as it is legal for you to do so?
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If the police are engaging in an illegal roust -- ABSOLUTELY.
Once again, there was nothing legal to "obstruct." This was harassment and bullying, NOT an investigation.
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I have a feeling that everyone who thinks this is, or we are headed towards, a police state have never actually visited a place that is a police state.
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I have a feeling that anyone who can't see that allowing police to be obnoxious, ignorant of the law, and recommending submission to outrageous requests, has no idea what causes police states to come into being.