Another bad habit, muzzle in the air

ColoradoDave · May 1st, 2009, 12:24 PM

Trying to break myself of a bad habit that was pointed out at the range a few weeks ago.

While walking up to the line, I had the muzzle of my weapon pointed up in the air and slightly down range. The guy I was at the range with who is an NRA Instuctor called me on it, and I'm glad he did.

Guess I've watched too many westerns and cop shows.

joffe · May 1st, 2009, 12:27 PM

Position SUL

Best position for when your gun is out but you're definitely not in a fight.

64zebra · May 1st, 2009, 12:55 PM

yep, was about to suggest Sul position too

LeCalsey · May 1st, 2009, 01:56 PM

South is easy to learn just like finger off trigger. I was originally taught a very different set of rules but the newer safety rules are easy to re-teach yourself

Janq · May 1st, 2009, 02:14 PM

Negative on SUL.

At a public range on a line an SO will very likely have a problem with SUL, and I would too.
The bore of the firearm should most properly and _safely_ be aimed down range and no where else.
Not up, down, nor to either side. Down range...as in firearm bore on the horizontal.

Pointed in the air is a no brainer as to why that is a bad idea.
Pointed in SUL position is same as related to the deck material one is standing on be it concrete which will cause errant rounds to ricochet flatly and into the feet or ankles of _other_ persons standing around. Or if even on packed dirt debris can latter and even the round ricochet again off into other persons feet and legs.

When at a range and approaching a line the firearm should be as handled pointed down range (very old and well known NRA taught rules!) or stowed in a case or carrier of some sort and it with bore pointed down range.
Or best yet, _holstered_ on your body.

Position SUL is reserved for single person combat conditions handling of a firearm as when active but observing...or when in some tacti-cool class of tacti-cool characters.

Wrong - Gun High

Right - Pointed down range

Wrong - Position 'SUL'

Image source - http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=318889

Right - Holstered on body

As an SO if I saw a shooter at a public range approach the line/bench in the SUL position I would immediately stop him and insist on a correction, even as I know what SUL is and what it's purpose is toward...which is not for approaching the line/bench so as to shoot.

- Janq

Also note with SUL where is the bore of the firearm on the above pic pointing? (!)

64zebra · May 1st, 2009, 02:19 PM

hmmm.....to each their own, maybe OP should check into what his range says is good/bad for THEM
all our officers are trained to Sul.....and our training officers are the SO for the public range we have our LE only range alongside....and guess what they teach.....

I'm not talking about while teaching a class with people lined up beside each other, thats up to who is teaching the class, but to say Sul is absolutely wrong is wrong...IMO

Janq · May 1st, 2009, 02:33 PM

64Z,

I did not say nor imply that SUL is "absolutely" wrong.

I'd said specific to the relative condition as related by the OP, use of SUL is wrong.
There is a time, place, and condition for use of SUL and approaching a line or bench at a public range is not that time, place, nor condition.

Further this is established and explained as such in the thread your linked which explains why SUL was developed, it's intended application, and where as well as when it is to be applied...which is not when approaching a line or bench at a public range.

Quote:

...Mr. Alan Brosnan describes this position this way: Position SUL, is not a classic "gun ready" position, but rather a "gun safety" position. It was primarily designed for the Brazilian officers as they poured Out of their SUVs on missions in the slums. Their muzzle control was atrocious, and since Max and I were in the SUVs, it did not take much brain power for us to create a solution to this evident problem -- be it right or wrong for many of the US instructors and critics. I think most of them thought it was a substitute for a classic "gun-ready" position and that is where the confusion came in.

The position has taken off among the law enforcement and military training community. After they understand the concept, it's hard for them to disagree with it, especially since it affects safety - predominately their own!

I teach the position because in any firearms class I teach we have a 360° “HOT” range. All too often trainers and students get marred down in the square range mentality, or the idea that threats only comes from in front of them. Now more than ever we need to train our officers, operators and students that threats come from 360°.

“SUL” is an alternative to the ready or low ready position, perhaps better suited to crowded environments. With correct technique, a weapon held in this position is less likely to violate Safety Rule #2 by pointing at people unintentionally.

The properly applied SUL also prevents the muzzle from pointing at the shooter’s feet and legs when scanning 360°....

Oppositely use of a high ready bore down range approach is best and safest for use at a public range, but is equally "wrong" and not best nor safe under the specific conditions as described above, hence the reasons for development of SUL.
There is no 'absolute'. Everything as related to handling of firearms is conditional as based on environment and application.

I am confident that when you show them this thread ask their view that your training officers will also agree, as well they should.

- Janq

Edit:
Here is an article on the use of Position SUL again being specific as to time, place, and very specific condition as an applied method.
http://www.tftt.com/images/Articles/...y_Position.pdf

BAC · May 1st, 2009, 03:53 PM

SUL wasn't intended to be a general movement position. Or so I thought.

-B

AllAmerican · May 1st, 2009, 04:00 PM

I dont know if SUL is right or wrong but it sure looks goofy. I say keep it holstered or pointed downrange.

Janq · May 1st, 2009, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BAC

SUL wasn't intended to be a general movement position.

Bingo.

It's an operator static position method of at guard environmental observation.
Very much specific in condition and not general purpose use for Joe Blow civilian moving to and fro at a public range.

- Janq

May 1st, 2009, 12:24 PM	#1
ColoradoDave Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 175	Another bad habit, muzzle in the air Trying to break myself of a bad habit that was pointed out at the range a few weeks ago. While walking up to the line, I had the muzzle of my weapon pointed up in the air and slightly down range. The guy I was at the range with who is an NRA Instuctor called me on it, and I'm glad he did. Guess I've watched too many westerns and cop shows. __________________ NRA Life Member. H&K USP Compact .40 Among others.

May 1st, 2009, 12:55 PM	#3
64zebra VIP Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Panhandle of Texas Posts: 4,566	yep, was about to suggest Sul position too __________________ LEO & CHL Independence is declared; it must be maintained. Sam Houston-3/2/1836 HK45 G30\|21\|26\|17 KT P11 Moss500 Ithaca37 Savage20ga\|15A .22\|'99 25-35 AK47 AR15 Win3030 MN44 Rem 66\|870 GMBH67.22 If loose gun laws are good for criminals, why do criminals support gun control?

May 1st, 2009, 01:56 PM	#4
LeCalsey Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: St Augustine, Florida Posts: 686	South is easy to learn just like finger off trigger. I was originally taught a very different set of rules but the newer safety rules are easy to re-teach yourself __________________ "I am glad you asked that question. Uh.....Aaaa....Err....uh....um.....err............ .where is my teleprompter?" Barack Hussein Obama (Teleprompter In Chief)

May 1st, 2009, 02:14 PM	#5
Janq VIP Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 4,519	Negative on SUL. At a public range on a line an SO will very likely have a problem with SUL, and I would too. The bore of the firearm should most properly and _safely_ be aimed down range and no where else. Not up, down, nor to either side. Down range...as in firearm bore on the horizontal. Pointed in the air is a no brainer as to why that is a bad idea. Pointed in SUL position is same as related to the deck material one is standing on be it concrete which will cause errant rounds to ricochet flatly and into the feet or ankles of _other_ persons standing around. Or if even on packed dirt debris can latter and even the round ricochet again off into other persons feet and legs. When at a range and approaching a line the firearm should be as handled pointed down range (very old and well known NRA taught rules!) or stowed in a case or carrier of some sort and it with bore pointed down range. Or best yet, _holstered_ on your body. Position SUL is reserved for single person combat conditions handling of a firearm as when active but observing...or when in some tacti-cool class of tacti-cool characters. Wrong - Gun High Right - Pointed down range Wrong - Position 'SUL' Image source - http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=318889 Right - Holstered on body As an SO if I saw a shooter at a public range approach the line/bench in the SUL position I would immediately stop him and insist on a correction, even as I know what SUL is and what it's purpose is toward...which is not for approaching the line/bench so as to shoot. - Janq Also note with SUL where is the bore of the firearm on the above pic pointing? (!) __________________ "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy Monday, March 12, 2007 -- Op Ed -- The Washington Post

May 1st, 2009, 02:19 PM	#6
64zebra VIP Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Panhandle of Texas Posts: 4,566	hmmm.....to each their own, maybe OP should check into what his range says is good/bad for THEM all our officers are trained to Sul.....and our training officers are the SO for the public range we have our LE only range alongside....and guess what they teach..... I'm not talking about while teaching a class with people lined up beside each other, thats up to who is teaching the class, but to say Sul is absolutely wrong is wrong...IMO __________________ LEO & CHL Independence is declared; it must be maintained. Sam Houston-3/2/1836 HK45 G30\|21\|26\|17 KT P11 Moss500 Ithaca37 Savage20ga\|15A .22\|'99 25-35 AK47 AR15 Win3030 MN44 Rem 66\|870 GMBH67.22 If loose gun laws are good for criminals, why do criminals support gun control?

May 1st, 2009, 12:27 PM	#2
joffe Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Europe Posts: 159	Position SUL Best position for when your gun is out but you're definitely not in a fight. __________________ Free State Project

May 1st, 2009, 03:53 PM	#8
BAC Distinguished Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Tampa, Florida Posts: 1,992	SUL wasn't intended to be a general movement position. Or so I thought. -B __________________ RIP, Jeff Dorr: 1964 - July 17, 2009. You will be missed. Defensive Carry Search Tips Step 1 - Choose a subforum on right side under "Search in Forum(s)" Step 2 - Type general topic of interest in "Search by Keyword" textbox. Step 3 - Read results and refine/repeat as necessary.

May 1st, 2009, 04:00 PM	#9
AllAmerican VIP Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Chesterfield, Kakalaki del Sur Posts: 2,401	I dont know if SUL is right or wrong but it sure looks goofy. I say keep it holstered or pointed downrange. __________________ My Music: www.reverbnation.com/dickiefredericks New tunes added. "The Double Tap Center Mass Boogie. Learn it, know it, love it, shoot it. Good guys should live, bad guys not so much. " - Ted Nugent 09

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