In The Gravest Extreme (Book) - Page 2

PocketRocket · April 28th, 2008, 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BikerRN

I can't speak for Massad Ayoob, but I do read his writing, and agree with most of it. I may be wrong, but let me see if I can explain it.

Someone grabbing you by the throat is not usually a "Lethal Threat". Remember that while you have to look at "worst case scenarios" you also cannot act beyond what is known at the time of the threat. For example:

Lets say a man walks up to you in Podunk, AR and grabs you by the throat. He has made no verbal comments to the effect that place you in "fear of your life" nor has he done anything else in regards to attacking you. By my teaching you have been the victim of a simple assault.

You don't know it but this nefarious critter has a 7" Bowie Knife in his waistband. You pull your gun and proceed to ventilate said critter with three rounds from your trusted firearm. In the course of the investigation the knife is discovered, and the fact that it was an unknown element to you. Trust me, this sort of stuff happens all the time.

Because the knife was unknown to you and you were only the victim of a "simple assault" you are not justified in stopping your attacker with Deadly Force. Attempts to flee, disengage from your attacker and verbalization of the ability to use Deadly Force all work in your favor. Who but someone attempting to use Deadly Force would continue an attack against a person that has the ability to use Deadly Force?

Laws vary by communities and "In The Gravest Extreme" was written to try and encompass all the various locales in our great land. Truth be told I don't think one will go wrong if they follow the teachings in Massad Ayoob's writings and may prevent untold future hardship.

Firearms are considered a tool of "last resort" and attempts to use other tools work in your favor, usually, before resorting to Deadly Force if at all possible.

Biker

My original post mentioned being punched in the face as well as being grabbed by the throat. The punch felt like and had the effect of Mike Tyson in the ring. Your on the ground now kinda woozy unable to run and he's coming back for more. Do you call "Time-out" or fill him with lead? I think I know what I'd do.

kazzaerexys · April 28th, 2008, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PocketRocket

My original post mentioned being punched in the face as well as being grabbed by the throat. The punch felt like and had the effect of Mike Tyson in the ring. Your on the ground now kinda woozy unable to run and he's coming back for more. Do you call "Time-out" or fill him with lead? I think I know what I'd do.

There's a lot more to this issue than a single thread here can address. Ayoob gets to a lot of it in that book. A single unarmed opponent may represent a lethal threat based on a disparity of force. One of the typical examples of such a disparity is an able attacker against a disabled victim. If a normal fistfight (no defensible lethal threat) results in you ending up down on the ground, disoriented and unable to defend yourself, and the attacker presses on, then that could well be a lethal force situation based on the disparity of force. More than one court has decided that the "shod foot" against a defenseless victim is, indeed, a lethal weapon.

PR, there are some simple (or, at least, straightforward) situations where just about any sane person can look at what happened and say, yep, that was a danger to life and limb. There are a whole lot more situations that are much greyer, where you could end up facing charges and the final result, whether or not you get convicted, may depend upon your ability to clearly articulate how you decided, in a split second, that you were in fear for your life and needed to react accordingly. What Ayoob's book does (pretty well, in my opinion) is address a lot of the little details that can help you make that decision and explain it to a potential jury.

Remember, the legal standard for self defense is not that you felt in fear of your life; it's that a hypothetical reasonable man, embodied by twelve jurors, would have felt in fear of his life in that same situation knowing what you knew at that time.

So, getting grabbed and punched may pose a lethal threat, but you may spend a lot of time and money having a lawyer try to explain that against a DA who keeps pointing out to the jury how you gunned down an unarmed man in cold blood.

riverkeeper · April 28th, 2008, 02:05 PM

If some guy
1. grabs you by the throat sufficiently to at least immobilize you.
2. smashs you in the face
3.AND does not immediately disengage.

He has demonstrated
Abilitiy -- to continue to hurt you to an unknown extent
Intent -- to hurt you to an unknown extent
Opportunity -- well he has you by the throat with no sign of disengaging.

You have a reason IMHO to expect additional and probably severe bodily harm (ever been really grabbed by the throat?).

Depending on disparity issues ....
It is open season on this @#$%^

QKShooter · April 28th, 2008, 03:16 PM

In The Gravest Extreme.
I bought the book early on.
It (for sure) was worth way more than the modest $$$ that I paid for the book.

crzy4guns · April 29th, 2008, 11:16 AM

I too have read the book and it does have a lot of good information in it. Although it is a little outdated as Massad Ayoob at that time recommended several good .380 pistols for self defense firearms, he now recommends pistols in 9mm or above for a good defensive caliber.

retsupt99 · April 29th, 2008, 09:04 PM

Great book...read it long ago! The moment someone gets close enough to grab me by the throat, that little .380 is a superb 'shoot him in the eye' gun...OMO, of course!

socuban · April 30th, 2008, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PocketRocket

Recently bought this book cause of the good things folks here have said about it. Was reading along and enjoying the book until I came to page 20 and read:

"Suppose you are minding your own business and an assailant walks up to you, grabs you by the throat, and punches you in the face. You can't shoot him yet; he has not offered sufficient show of deadly force."

He's kiddin right?

I just "hit" that page last night. I'm reserving comment until I read the whole book.

Greybeard · April 30th, 2008, 10:50 PM

I don't have a copy handy here, but IIRC, it was published about 1980.

In one of the first shootings by a Texas CHL holder it became more widely known that striking the head, neck spine or throat, when combined with "the totality of the circumstances", can justify the use of deadly force.

April 28th, 2008, 02:05 PM	#13
riverkeeper Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Washington's Olympic Penninsula Posts: 251	If some guy 1. grabs you by the throat sufficiently to at least immobilize you. 2. smashs you in the face 3.AND does not immediately disengage. He has demonstrated Abilitiy -- to continue to hurt you to an unknown extent Intent -- to hurt you to an unknown extent Opportunity -- well he has you by the throat with no sign of disengaging. You have a reason IMHO to expect additional and probably severe bodily harm (ever been really grabbed by the throat?). Depending on disparity issues .... It is open season on this @#$%^ __________________ Old Testament....Shooting to Live 1942 http://www.gutterfighting.org/files/...ng_to_live.pdf Newer Testament... Kill or Get Killed 1976/1987 http://www.gutterfighting.org/files/...Get_Killed.pdf

April 28th, 2008, 03:16 PM	#14
QKShooter Assistant Administrator Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Runthegun, PA. Posts: 18,263	In The Gravest Extreme. I bought the book early on. It (for sure) was worth way more than the modest $$$ that I paid for the book. __________________ *Support Our Troops* How Very Fortunate You Are To Have Two Arms To Put Into A Ward 57 T-Shirt. DC MEMBERS ~ PLEASE BUY A WARD 57 SHIRT. Click Here.

April 29th, 2008, 09:04 PM	#16
retsupt99 VIP Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Central Florida Posts: 11,614	Great book...read it long ago! The moment someone gets close enough to grab me by the throat, that little .380 is a superb 'shoot him in the eye' gun...OMO, of course! __________________ ‘‘Four out of five politicians surveyed prefered unarmed, ignorant peasants.’’ — Unknown Liberals are as American as 'dog dodo' pie...

April 30th, 2008, 10:50 PM	#18
Greybeard Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Denton County, Texas Posts: 23	I don't have a copy handy here, but IIRC, it was published about 1980. In one of the first shootings by a Texas CHL holder it became more widely known that striking the head, neck spine or throat, when combined with "the totality of the circumstances", can justify the use of deadly force. __________________ www.dentoncountysports.com A Private Palace for Pistol Proficiency

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April 29th, 2008, 11:16 AM	#15
crzy4guns Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Kansas Posts: 1,130	I too have read the book and it does have a lot of good information in it. Although it is a little outdated as Massad Ayoob at that time recommended several good .380 pistols for self defense firearms, he now recommends pistols in 9mm or above for a good defensive caliber.