Firepower - for size and weight? - Page 4

ExSoldier · September 20th, 2005, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HotGuns

Shot placement is SO much more important than caliber.

That is a fact.

However...

In a shootout where you and the badguy are both moving and trying to KILL each other, shot placement is the first thing that goes out the window.

In a combat situation, the ability to accurately "place" shots is very difficult to do. Sure...anyone can shoot the center out of a B29 silhouetter and think that they are good to go, but the reality of is that when someone is shooting at you "shot placement" is way down the list of things to do.

Agreed. Moreover, I would stipulate that a shot through the eye with a .22 is going to kill just as fast as a shot through the eye with a 45.

However, in a highly fluid situation where both parties are moving between cover, or trying for position, an extremity shot from a .22, .380 or even a 38sp is not going to have the same "shock to the nervous system" as a shot from a .45. Just in cross sectional density PLUS velocity, it is going to be a much greater effect, if the bullet that strikes a hand or bicep is a 45. I don't care if the smaller round is tumbling or expanding, because the 45 may be doing so as well. The shock is still going to be greater.

Tangle · September 20th, 2005, 05:01 PM

I think the shock to the nervous system has been dismissed as a stopping mechanism. There have been too many accounts of people getting shot in a gunfight with .357 mags and .45 ACPs that didn't know they had been shot. All they said they felt was stings. To reiterate an account I gave earlier, I saw an actual police video of a thin woman that was shot 3 times in the torso and she didn't go down, and ran around a car with three .45 ACP shots in her torso. Such accounts are not uncommon.

There are numerous accounts of LEO getting shot but they still subdue the BG. There are numerous accounts of BGs receiving fatal gunshot wounds and fighting for minutes.

In another police video, a BG shot an officer in the arm with a .25 cal. The officer died at the scene.

ExSoldier · September 20th, 2005, 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tangle

There are numerous accounts of LEO getting shot but they still subdue the BG. There are numerous accounts of BGs receiving fatal gunshot wounds and fighting for minutes. In another police video, a BG shot an officer in the arm with a .25 cal. The officer died at the scene.

There are a lot of variables in such situations. "WILL TO LIVE" is almost as powerful as being on drugs which is often the case with BGs. There was a case out in California where a CHP trooper got into a gunbattle with a perp who was on "Angel Dust" and the officer shot TWO cylinders of 41 Magnum into the guy. It got to the point that as he struggled to rise again from the roadway, the trooper fired and could see the concrete being pulverized benmeath the body as the rounds passed through and struck pavement. The encounter ended when another officer arrived and shot the guy in the head with a 12 ga. The officer shot in the arm just succumbed to the fear and the shock killed him. Little in the way of survival instinct. I know soldiers who've suffered grievous wounds and their attitude has always been: Nope...uh-uh...either kill me outright, or I'll make it back ALLLLLL the way. A healthy if twisted sense of humor is critical, believe it or not.

gunthorp · September 20th, 2005, 10:45 PM

After her boyfriend shot her point blank in the center of the forehead, she told arriving cops she had a headache. After her full recovery it was shown the .357 had so perfectly split her brain that no permanent damage resulted. However, had the bullet been placed lower and into her brain stem, it would have been instant Goodnight Irene.

In India, after putting several .45 FMJ's into or through perp, the LEO had to chase him down and hit him on the head with his revolver.

The lady in New Hampshire who reached to her nightstand for sinex put a .25 ACP round up her nose, but it didn't clear her sinuses.

Makes you want to use HP ammo all the time, except for the mouse guns that need all the penetration they can get along with expert shot placement.

I think the 427 AC Cobra had pretty good power to weight :)

ExSoldier · September 20th, 2005, 11:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gunthorp

After her boyfriend shot her point blank in the center of the forehead, she told arriving cops she had a headache. After her full recovery it was shown the .357 had so perfectly split her brain that no permanent damage resulted. However, had the bullet been placed lower and into her brain stem, it would have been instant Goodnight Irene.

Proof, finally, that being a LIBERAL can save your life!

gunthorp · September 21st, 2005, 06:40 PM

Swell I was a liberal, untill I got mugged at gunpoint :)

RatBastard · September 21st, 2005, 09:43 PM

Still not sure what I'll end up with. After 13 years in the military with the .45 I had to qual shoot with a 9mm and just plain didn't like it. I did not feel it had the stopping power I was used to. I need to find a range in SW Denver (Highlands Ranch/Castle Rock) with rentals or a club so I can try the different options. 9 vs 40 vs 45.

RB

raevan · October 26th, 2005, 03:15 AM

Personally after so many years carrying an O frame slabsides 45 , I wouldn't think of changing. I just like single stacks, they have gotten me this far, always carry extra mags.

maclean3 · October 26th, 2005, 08:45 AM

While I personally prefer .45acp in a Commander or Gov't. length 1911, my current CCW is a J-frame S&W in .38spl. +P with one reload. It carries and conceals well under a t-shirt, I shoot it fairly well at 7 to 10 yards and that's lightest caliber I have confidence in.

When the time came to get my permit I needed a reasonably concealable and ultimately reliable handgun that I could afford, the S&W meets those needs. When finances improve I'll be shopping for a new 1911 but for now my 642 will have to do.

I passed on a great deal on a lightly used Sig 229 .40 not long ago. While I really like the Sigs and the 229 in particular, the fire controls are reversed from the 1911 I'm familiar with. If I get them confused standng in a well lit gunshop then there's a high probability I'd do the same under stress when it matters most.

OD · October 26th, 2005, 09:22 AM

Quote:

Does the 1911 with std 7+1 ''cut it"?

Yessir Chris, it does and has for a longtime.

September 20th, 2005, 10:45 PM	#34
gunthorp Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Duluth MN Posts: 592	After her boyfriend shot her point blank in the center of the forehead, she told arriving cops she had a headache. After her full recovery it was shown the .357 had so perfectly split her brain that no permanent damage resulted. However, had the bullet been placed lower and into her brain stem, it would have been instant Goodnight Irene. In India, after putting several .45 FMJ's into or through perp, the LEO had to chase him down and hit him on the head with his revolver. The lady in New Hampshire who reached to her nightstand for sinex put a .25 ACP round up her nose, but it didn't clear her sinuses. Makes you want to use HP ammo all the time, except for the mouse guns that need all the penetration they can get along with expert shot placement. I think the 427 AC Cobra had pretty good power to weight :) __________________ Don't dither. The nick of time comes just before the moment lost.

September 21st, 2005, 06:40 PM	#36
gunthorp Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Duluth MN Posts: 592	Swell I was a liberal, untill I got mugged at gunpoint :) __________________ Don't dither. The nick of time comes just before the moment lost.

September 21st, 2005, 09:43 PM	#37
RatBastard New Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Castle Rock, CO Posts: 14	Still not sure what I'll end up with. After 13 years in the military with the .45 I had to qual shoot with a 9mm and just plain didn't like it. I did not feel it had the stopping power I was used to. I need to find a range in SW Denver (Highlands Ranch/Castle Rock) with rentals or a club so I can try the different options. 9 vs 40 vs 45. RB __________________ Managerial Nightmare A proud supplier of ex-managers to mental health clinics.

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September 20th, 2005, 05:01 PM	#32
Tangle Senior Moderator Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chattanooga Posts: 5,801	I think the shock to the nervous system has been dismissed as a stopping mechanism. There have been too many accounts of people getting shot in a gunfight with .357 mags and .45 ACPs that didn't know they had been shot. All they said they felt was stings. To reiterate an account I gave earlier, I saw an actual police video of a thin woman that was shot 3 times in the torso and she didn't go down, and ran around a car with three .45 ACP shots in her torso. Such accounts are not uncommon. There are numerous accounts of LEO getting shot but they still subdue the BG. There are numerous accounts of BGs receiving fatal gunshot wounds and fighting for minutes. In another police video, a BG shot an officer in the arm with a .25 cal. The officer died at the scene.

October 26th, 2005, 03:15 AM	#38
raevan VIP Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: washington Posts: 4,093	Personally after so many years carrying an O frame slabsides 45 , I wouldn't think of changing. I just like single stacks, they have gotten me this far, always carry extra mags.

October 26th, 2005, 08:45 AM	#39
maclean3 VIP Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 2,876	While I personally prefer .45acp in a Commander or Gov't. length 1911, my current CCW is a J-frame S&W in .38spl. +P with one reload. It carries and conceals well under a t-shirt, I shoot it fairly well at 7 to 10 yards and that's lightest caliber I have confidence in. When the time came to get my permit I needed a reasonably concealable and ultimately reliable handgun that I could afford, the S&W meets those needs. When finances improve I'll be shopping for a new 1911 but for now my 642 will have to do. I passed on a great deal on a lightly used Sig 229 .40 not long ago. While I really like the Sigs and the 229 in particular, the fire controls are reversed from the 1911 I'm familiar with. If I get them confused standng in a well lit gunshop then there's a high probability I'd do the same under stress when it matters most.