Erich

Tangle,

I'm sure we can all think of answers to your hypothetical Qs by a plaintiff's lawyer. I don't have time to post mine and then to keep coming back to post responses to follow-up arguments, though. I'm sure you'll figure it out.

ExSoldier

Also depends on what part of the country you're in for both civil and criminal actions. Here in FL (Praise be to the legislature and JEB) it just became law that if the shooting is justifiable according to grand jury standards, there can be no indictment or any action by deceased perps estate to recover damages. I hope this becomes a national standard. In other parts of the country where gun ownership is high these types of actions are less likely to succeed. One of the members of my IDPA club is an experienced circuit court judge. We were shooting the bull after a match and I brought up the fact that I've switched to Sigs or H&K's for their DA actions on the first shot since I'm certain that my 1911 with the overtravel stop is going to feel feather light to some ignorant jury member. He replied that there were many ways to overcome that perception. You could have your attorney bring in a four pound bag of sugar and ask each jury member to move it just with their forefinger. That's the amount of pressure that must be exerted on a four pound trigger pull to achieve the shot. I think the overriding concerns expressed here as to disabling safety mechanisms are what leads to civil actions especially. A misread of circumstances or a misapplication of law (acting when you thought you were IAW the law when actually under the circumstances, you were not) are often the reasons for criminal charges. Cops have different (usually more restrictive) rules than those that apply to civilians in self defense situations, so you can't use that as a standard of measure. I've carried a badge for a living and I've been to law school too, so I've seen both sides. I don't practice law...although in the past I have TAUGHT law studies and so I've had the opportunity to get a lot of input from judges and the rest of the local legal community.

__________________
Former Infantry Captain; 20 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

Tangle

ExSoldier762,
I need to re-confirm this, but I think Tennessee has a law that works that way too, i.e. if you shoot someone in a justified shooting, you can't be sued in civil court.

But still, we could be traveling in a state that doesn't have such a law.

And, so your thought is, that a "moderate" trigger job that doesn't affect the safety of the gun is most likely gonna be ok?

QKShooter

But, he did write a few Gun Ragazine articles where he named actual court cases were used as examples of court gun modification troubles.
I think one or two other writers did the same also.
Massad would travel around & testify in various court cases as an expert witness.

The jury is still out with me on this subject. All of my defensive carry firearms are basically stock.
Right now...My "carry ammo" is the also exactly the same as what most of my local Police Depts use. That would be Speer Gold Dot.
I am probably being overly cautious.

I said this in the previous thread & I'll say it again. CYBB ~ Cover Your Bum Bum - When you send your pistol off to a custom gunsmith to have trigger work done...Enclose a formal Signed Dated Cover Letter Requesting a SAFE TRIGGER PULL of XXX pounds. Keep a copy for yourself.
One CAN probably also make the argument that a trigger pull that is TOO HEAVY & or gritty could also be Unsafe.
That would be if an excessively heavy trigger would cause inaccurate shot placement which could cause a miss & an innocent bystander to possibly be injured.

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Tangle

That's what I'm thinking on the gun mags and "reported" cases where gun mods did cause some trouble.

We often here "I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6", but I think it's prudent to add that that the 12 that judges us may also bury us - legally speaking.

I feel pretty safe with my guns that had trigger jobs done by manufacturers; they advertise it as carry trigger jobs to distinguish the trigger work from a competition trigger. Those should be safe.

My problem is I can't leave stuff alone. Once I saw what they did, I duplicated it some. That could be more of a problem since I did it, but the fact that they offer carry trigger jobs is enough to establish that even the manufacturer realizes their guns could use some work.

tanksoldier

"Because the work makes the weapon more expensive. Corporations and government agencies are concerned about the bottom line first. Look at all the aftermarket parts and accessories for cars or trucks. The manufacturer turns out a basic product and the consumer customizes it for their needs."

__________________
"I am a Soldier. I fight where I am told, and I win where I fight." GEN George S. Patton, Jr.

"Drive fast and eat cheese!"

Tangle

Good response. Then it becomes an issue of who can best convince the jury.

Tangle

You know, I was just thinking about this. Can you imagine an attorney that wants to prove you're a gun nut, putting you on the stand and in front of a jury consisting of people who likely don't own one gun, asking you how many guns you own? And then he asks, how much ammo you have on hand.

Or worse, he just lays out your collection and ammo for the jury to see for themselves.

I suspect trigger mods would never even have to come up.

P95Carry

If the attorney goes that route Ron - with that jury - then that's most of us screwed from the get go

__________________
Chris - P95
NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

"To own a gun and assume that you are armed
is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."

If a BG dies as the result of pointing a gun at me, then he has merely succumbed to an occupational hazard of being a thug

Tangle

For me, I've settled the matter. I did so by talking to one of my training instructors. When he said, "You have to survive the gunfight and your tools need to be everything they can be to do that. Reasonable trigger mods are not a problem, if you get into a very unlikely situation in court, expert witnesses will testify that the mods didn't make the gun unsafe and that 1000s of police officers have trigger jobs done on their gun. Gunsmiths will testify that the mods didn't make the gun unsafe."

Then I thought what I would say if the attorney says I had made my gun into a killer gun. Now I know how I'd reply, "When I realized I was about to die and saw my tiny little gun and sights on this nightmare that was trying to kill me, I wouldn't want anything less deadly than the gun I used, in fact, if I had had any less deadly gun that horrible night, I probably wouldn't be here today."

I'm keepin' my mods. They aren't match or competition mods, they're quite reasonable. In fact, how many have "match" triggers in 1911s, even if they come stock that way?

I'm convinced it's a highly unlikely issue and I am quite content knowing that my gun is set up to give me the best results I can get from it if my life ever depends on it.