Frustrated--need a lot of help

Rob87 · July 9th, 2008, 01:17 AM

Hi, I found this site through a Google search. It seems like this is a pretty active forum, so I decided to post.

I have a big dilemma: I recently received my concealed carry license, and so the next natural step is to purchase a concealed carry weapon.

The problem is, I have no idea what I want. Well, that's a lie: I have a pretty good idea. I want a handgun in a decent caliber that I can easily carry concealed on my person. I really like single-stack autoloaders, and although I do like revolvers, I'm not too keen on them.

I have a short list of handguns I'm looking at (it used to be very long, but having eliminated some since I didn't like how they felt in my hand, it's been shortened):

Sig P239
Walther PPK/S
S&W 1911PD (scandium commander)
Ruger SP101
S&W 60, 642

So, for my comments on each:

P239: Comfortable, alebeit slightly too short for my hand. Seems a bit too heavy for concealed carry, but it's available in 9mm.

PPK/S: Fits my hand perfectly. I had to talk myself out of buying it right then and there. I'm concerned that a .380 won't be enough to stop an attacker, and that the cost of .380 will catch up with me. If this weren't a .380, I'd buy it in a heartbeat.

S&W 1911PD: I like the idea of carrying a .45, as it's definitely got that "I'm a guy" appeal to it.

It's slightly too long for my hand, and I'm not sure if a .45 is something I'm comfortable shooting. Actually, the fact I'd even question shooting a .45 is a good sign I probably shouldn't buy one.

Ruger SP101: I love it. I love the way it feels in my hand, and I like the sounds it makes when you pull the hammer back, or open the cylinder. That's probably not a good reason to buy it, but hey. :P

S&W 60: I like the idea of a snubby that I can feed .38s, but still could feed .357s, which are probably the best round to stop another person if (god forbid) you had to.

S&W 642: Obligatory. Everyone and their mother has one of these, and it's highly recommended.

To be honest, the idea of carrying a small- or medium-sized autoloader appeals to me a hell of a lot more than carrying a revolver. I really don't like how the revolvers won't be accurate at any significant distance because of their short barrels, and while I hope I never need to be accurate past 21 ft., I want something that will give me the ability to do so if the need should arise.

Before I remove the PPK/S from my list, I have to ask: Is the .380 adequate for self-defense? Some people say no, citing it's rather poor ballistic performance compared to the 9mm. Others say it's the minimum autoloader caliber. Others consider the .380 to be the line that marks where the bad calibers start.

Handgun Cartridge Power Chart - Condensed Version

Looking at that makes me thing. The penetration is okay, but the kinetic energy output isn't that great. The one-shot stop rate isn't good, either.

So, answer me these:
1. .380: Good or bad?
2. Which should I carry out of those I listed?
3. What other small 9mm handguns should I try? (No Glocks or M&Ps; already tried them, and I don't like them)

Thanks.

HowardCohodas · July 9th, 2008, 01:22 AM

The Beginner's Guide to Carry. Concealed Carry Forum - Carry Guide

QKShooter · July 9th, 2008, 01:35 AM

May I suggest that you take a look at some of the offerings by STI International.

They have some nice compact single stack 9s that are worthy of consideration. CLICK HERE.

Metro 40 · July 9th, 2008, 01:40 AM

Kahr K9 is a nice single stack 9mm. If you're going to belt carry, you won't notice the weight with a good belt and holster, and Kahr metal frame pistols have a very good reputation for reliability. The extra weight will help to control recoil with hot +p loads, if you are so inclined. Simple to operate, smooth trigger, decent caliber, single-stack....what's not to like? I'd take it over a Sig P239 any day.

ccw9mm · July 9th, 2008, 03:30 AM

Sounds like you should keep hitting the ranges, renting as many different guns as possible.

I'm under the assumption that buying one or two guns won't break the bank. So, here is what I would recommend. Purchase what feels good in the hand, knowing that as you gain proficiency over the next month or two of weekly shooting, you'll begin to see why it's right/wrong for you. At the point of 3mos, I think you'll have enough saddle time with it to know: will it work, or will something else be better. At that point, you'll have an inkling of why that second choice would be better. That may sound an expensive way to go, but you can, for the price of a couple hundred dollars, simply sell out for another unit if you decide that another would be preferable. You need not be permanently saddled with a choice that doesn't fit.

Above all, know that you won't be carrying something that (a) doesn't feel right, (b) makes you wince about shooting, or (c) is so heavy/awkward that it's uncomfortable to carry. Pick something that matches your clothing choice and preferred mode of carry (IWB, OWB, pocket), as you'll want to ensure you properly conceal it.

As for caliber, there are lots of opinions on that. My backup gun is a .380ACP. I view it as an acceptable minimum. Not preferable, mind you, but there aren't a lot of other choices in 9mm that approach the size. A .45ACP isn't bad, either. The recoil profile is different than, say, a 9mm. Hard to know if you'll like or dislike it until you actually shoot a few. Each gun will behave differently in a given caliber, so try several.

If you haven't already handled these, consider them:

Kahr K9, or P9 for weight-reduction. For me, the K9 is the most perfect fit to my hand, though the controls are tight and edges are sharp. With some tuning and a frame "melt," this would be one heck of a choice in single-stack 9mm format.
HK P2000SK. Again, a wonderful fit in the hand, for me. One trouble is the magazine release, which is positioned such that I cannot generate sufficient force to eject the thing (thanks to an old fracture in the hand). But, it's small, concealable, easy to carry, easy to use. It's got an ambidextrous slide release and mag release, so it's suitable for lefties as well.
Any of several 1911 style options, including: STI's Escort, Off Duty, Rogue and LS9; Springfield's EMP 9mm, Micro Compact; Kimber's CDP Ultra or Pro carry; Kimber's Aegis 9mm; Colt's original Officer's; any of a number of CCO-format 1911's (officer's frame with a commander-length slide), such as Para Ordnance's CCO.
If the 1911 format grabs you, but perhaps the trigger layout intimidates you, consider Para Ordnance's LDA line of pistols. They've got a wide range of choices. One will certainly fit your hand. Consider the PDA 9 LDA or the Carry 9 LDA. Both are single-stack mites that are extremely easy to conceal. Both have the LDA trigger, for those that prefer to not have the standard 1911-style trigger system.

If you've ever held an STI, they can be a thing of beauty. If you ever get out to Arizona, consider looking up these folks: Thunder Mountain Custom. They always have a large number of STI's in stock, so they can be great for handling different guns and trying them out.

Ram Rod · July 9th, 2008, 04:22 AM

Lochinver · July 9th, 2008, 05:18 AM

Welcome to the board and congratz on getting your permit!

1. .380. opinions vary. I'm a .45 person myself. But found carrying a .45 in the summer time more difficult and bought myself a .380 for summertime. YMMV depending on your style of clothing. Also, depends on the ammunition you put in the .380.

2. You really need to make that decision yourself. Those are all good firearms you have listed. Myself, I'm a autoloader person. The guy down/up the list will be a revolver person. Obviously, you want something that you can conceal, first and formost. But a very very very close second, IMHO is one you are comfortable with. It's going to be practice practice practice.

However, don't discount your snubby revolvers based on accuracy. Remember the statistics. Encounters happen within ~7 feet, low light.

I came very close to buying a S&W airlight.

3. Springfield EMP. High price might shy you away though.

JRG · July 9th, 2008, 05:41 AM

You should also look at CZ's

cz-usa.com

I carry the CZ PCR in 9mm

MNBurl · July 9th, 2008, 06:28 AM

Welcome to the forum.

What you want for your first carry gun is one that you can carry in the most situations you will encounter.

If the PPK/S fit your hands perfectly that for a semi that would be what I would go for.

If you like revolvers, either the Model 60 or 642 would work well. The 642 would be a great pocket carry option. The ability to shoot 357 with the heavier Model 60 (or a Taurus Model 605) would be a great solution for IWB or OWB.

Get yourself a good belt and a couple different holsters for what ever gun you decide.

ctr · July 9th, 2008, 07:07 AM

Regardless of what I think, or anyone else things about the "best" caliber or handgun, what matters is you. Choose the weapon that appeals to you the most, that combines the benefits and compromises of fitting your hand the best, and the weight of carry. That is the handgun you will carry all the time and enjoy shooting.

July 9th, 2008, 01:17 AM	#1
Rob87 New Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: MA, USA Posts: 14	Frustrated--need a lot of help Hi, I found this site through a Google search. It seems like this is a pretty active forum, so I decided to post. I have a big dilemma: I recently received my concealed carry license, and so the next natural step is to purchase a concealed carry weapon. The problem is, I have no idea what I want. Well, that's a lie: I have a pretty good idea. I want a handgun in a decent caliber that I can easily carry concealed on my person. I really like single-stack autoloaders, and although I do like revolvers, I'm not too keen on them. I have a short list of handguns I'm looking at (it used to be very long, but having eliminated some since I didn't like how they felt in my hand, it's been shortened): Sig P239 Walther PPK/S S&W 1911PD (scandium commander) Ruger SP101 S&W 60, 642 So, for my comments on each: P239: Comfortable, alebeit slightly too short for my hand. Seems a bit too heavy for concealed carry, but it's available in 9mm. PPK/S: Fits my hand perfectly. I had to talk myself out of buying it right then and there. I'm concerned that a .380 won't be enough to stop an attacker, and that the cost of .380 will catch up with me. If this weren't a .380, I'd buy it in a heartbeat. S&W 1911PD: I like the idea of carrying a .45, as it's definitely got that "I'm a guy" appeal to it. It's slightly too long for my hand, and I'm not sure if a .45 is something I'm comfortable shooting. Actually, the fact I'd even question shooting a .45 is a good sign I probably shouldn't buy one. Ruger SP101: I love it. I love the way it feels in my hand, and I like the sounds it makes when you pull the hammer back, or open the cylinder. That's probably not a good reason to buy it, but hey. :P S&W 60: I like the idea of a snubby that I can feed .38s, but still could feed .357s, which are probably the best round to stop another person if (god forbid) you had to. S&W 642: Obligatory. Everyone and their mother has one of these, and it's highly recommended. To be honest, the idea of carrying a small- or medium-sized autoloader appeals to me a hell of a lot more than carrying a revolver. I really don't like how the revolvers won't be accurate at any significant distance because of their short barrels, and while I hope I never need to be accurate past 21 ft., I want something that will give me the ability to do so if the need should arise. Before I remove the PPK/S from my list, I have to ask: Is the .380 adequate for self-defense? Some people say no, citing it's rather poor ballistic performance compared to the 9mm. Others say it's the minimum autoloader caliber. Others consider the .380 to be the line that marks where the bad calibers start. Handgun Cartridge Power Chart - Condensed Version Looking at that makes me thing. The penetration is okay, but the kinetic energy output isn't that great. The one-shot stop rate isn't good, either. So, answer me these: 1. .380: Good or bad? 2. Which should I carry out of those I listed? 3. What other small 9mm handguns should I try? (No Glocks or M&Ps; already tried them, and I don't like them) Thanks.

July 9th, 2008, 01:22 AM	#2
HowardCohodas Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Canton, OH Posts: 547	The Beginner's Guide to Carry. Concealed Carry Forum - Carry Guide __________________ Howard *I carry a gun because I can't carry a cop!!* M&P 45fs with Crimson Trace LaserGrip plus a 14-round spare mag in a SmartCarry holster LCP (waiting for release of LG-431) M&P 45c (Hoping Crimson Trace will come through)

July 9th, 2008, 01:35 AM	#3
QKShooter Assistant Administrator Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Runthegun, USA Posts: 18,776	May I suggest that you take a look at some of the offerings by STI International. They have some nice compact single stack 9s that are worthy of consideration. CLICK HERE. __________________ *Support Our Troops* How Very Fortunate You Are To Have Two Arms To Put Into A Ward 57 T-Shirt. DC MEMBERS ~ PLEASE BUY A WARD 57 SHIRT. Click Here.

July 9th, 2008, 01:40 AM	#4
Metro 40 Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Midwest USA Posts: 379	Kahr K9 is a nice single stack 9mm. If you're going to belt carry, you won't notice the weight with a good belt and holster, and Kahr metal frame pistols have a very good reputation for reliability. The extra weight will help to control recoil with hot +p loads, if you are so inclined. Simple to operate, smooth trigger, decent caliber, single-stack....what's not to like? I'd take it over a Sig P239 any day. __________________ "Fast is fine, but accuracy is everything." Wyatt Earp

July 9th, 2008, 03:30 AM	#5
ccw9mm VIP Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Oregon USA Posts: 5,437	Sounds like you should keep hitting the ranges, renting as many different guns as possible. I'm under the assumption that buying one or two guns won't break the bank. So, here is what I would recommend. Purchase what feels good in the hand, knowing that as you gain proficiency over the next month or two of weekly shooting, you'll begin to see why it's right/wrong for you. At the point of 3mos, I think you'll have enough saddle time with it to know: will it work, or will something else be better. At that point, you'll have an inkling of why that second choice would be better. That may sound an expensive way to go, but you can, for the price of a couple hundred dollars, simply sell out for another unit if you decide that another would be preferable. You need not be permanently saddled with a choice that doesn't fit. Above all, know that you won't be carrying something that (a) doesn't feel right, (b) makes you wince about shooting, or (c) is so heavy/awkward that it's uncomfortable to carry. Pick something that matches your clothing choice and preferred mode of carry (IWB, OWB, pocket), as you'll want to ensure you properly conceal it. As for caliber, there are lots of opinions on that. My backup gun is a .380ACP. I view it as an acceptable minimum. Not preferable, mind you, but there aren't a lot of other choices in 9mm that approach the size. A .45ACP isn't bad, either. The recoil profile is different than, say, a 9mm. Hard to know if you'll like or dislike it until you actually shoot a few. Each gun will behave differently in a given caliber, so try several. If you haven't already handled these, consider them: Kahr K9, or P9 for weight-reduction. For me, the K9 is the most perfect fit to my hand, though the controls are tight and edges are sharp. With some tuning and a frame "melt," this would be one heck of a choice in single-stack 9mm format. HK P2000SK. Again, a wonderful fit in the hand, for me. One trouble is the magazine release, which is positioned such that I cannot generate sufficient force to eject the thing (thanks to an old fracture in the hand). But, it's small, concealable, easy to carry, easy to use. It's got an ambidextrous slide release and mag release, so it's suitable for lefties as well. Any of several 1911 style options, including: STI's Escort, Off Duty, Rogue and LS9; Springfield's EMP 9mm, Micro Compact; Kimber's CDP Ultra or Pro carry; Kimber's Aegis 9mm; Colt's original Officer's; any of a number of CCO-format 1911's (officer's frame with a commander-length slide), such as Para Ordnance's CCO. If the 1911 format grabs you, but perhaps the trigger layout intimidates you, consider Para Ordnance's LDA line of pistols. They've got a wide range of choices. One will certainly fit your hand. Consider the PDA 9 LDA or the Carry 9 LDA. Both are single-stack mites that are extremely easy to conceal. Both have the LDA trigger, for those that prefer to not have the standard 1911-style trigger system. If you've ever held an STI, they can be a thing of beauty. If you ever get out to Arizona, consider looking up these folks: Thunder Mountain Custom. They always have a large number of STI's in stock, so they can be great for handling different guns and trying them out. __________________ Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it. Reports: CZ P01 pt1, pt2. Thoughts: Justifiable self defense. US v Emerson, 2001: The 2A protects the individual RTKBA, regardless if serving in a militia or military.

July 9th, 2008, 04:22 AM	#6
Ram Rod VIP Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: crawford county, arkansas Posts: 3,467	__________________ RamRod-----sans remords

July 9th, 2008, 05:18 AM	#7
Lochinver Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Aurora, CO Posts: 166	Welcome to the board and congratz on getting your permit! 1. .380. opinions vary. I'm a .45 person myself. But found carrying a .45 in the summer time more difficult and bought myself a .380 for summertime. YMMV depending on your style of clothing. Also, depends on the ammunition you put in the .380. 2. You really need to make that decision yourself. Those are all good firearms you have listed. Myself, I'm a autoloader person. The guy down/up the list will be a revolver person. Obviously, you want something that you can conceal, first and formost. But a very very very close second, IMHO is one you are comfortable with. It's going to be practice practice practice. However, don't discount your snubby revolvers based on accuracy. Remember the statistics. Encounters happen within ~7 feet, low light. I came very close to buying a S&W airlight. 3. Springfield EMP. High price might shy you away though. __________________ "I no longer list firearms I own as a signature. Why give them another list to use when they come to get them?"

July 9th, 2008, 05:41 AM	#8
JRG Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Danville, IN Posts: 47	You should also look at CZ's cz-usa.com I carry the CZ PCR in 9mm __________________ Jim - Danville, IN "I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."

July 9th, 2008, 06:28 AM	#9
MNBurl Distinguished Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Minnesota Posts: 1,779	Welcome to the forum. What you want for your first carry gun is one that you can carry in the most situations you will encounter. If the PPK/S fit your hands perfectly that for a semi that would be what I would go for. If you like revolvers, either the Model 60 or 642 would work well. The 642 would be a great pocket carry option. The ability to shoot 357 with the heavier Model 60 (or a Taurus Model 605) would be a great solution for IWB or OWB. Get yourself a good belt and a couple different holsters for what ever gun you decide. __________________ MNBurl Side Guard Holsters "If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking" - George S. Patton.

July 9th, 2008, 07:07 AM	#10
ctr Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 201	Regardless of what I think, or anyone else things about the "best" caliber or handgun, what matters is you. Choose the weapon that appeals to you the most, that combines the benefits and compromises of fitting your hand the best, and the weight of carry. That is the handgun you will carry all the time and enjoy shooting.

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