Safety of National Parks/Conceal Carry - Page 2

BlackPR · January 18th, 2008, 09:45 AM

Number one on the "Most Dangerous National Parks" list is Organ Pipe Cactus National Monument.

The number of murders in the post above is deceptively low as MANY bodies are recovered from Organ Pipe Cactus National Monument each year. Many due to exposure, but almost all occuring during the commission of a crime (drug or people smuggling). But unless it's obviously a "murder" it doesn't make the list.

60,000 to 80,000 pounds of marijuana were seized in Organ Pipe last year. An estimated 1,000 illegal immigrants can pass through Organ Pipe in a single day.

Organ Pipe and Saguaro were referred to in the Fraternal Order of Police report on Most Dangerous national parks as "home to body dumping, smuggling and poaching."

While most of the danger in Saguaro is faced by park rangers themselves, [Ranger Karen] Bradford says visitors should realize that a natural preserve so close to Tucson isn't going to be Disneyland. "Bad people come into the park, just like in the city."

Many of the people who oppose Conceal Carry (or even Open Carry) in National Parks proclaim that to do so will make it a place where they won't feel safe to take their families and they will lose their Parks. Organ Pipe Cactus National Monument is apparently lost.

How do we "take it back?" The short answer is not Law Enforcement. By their own admission, even a doubling of budgets would only be a start to resolving the problem. Taking it back means USING it. The same way we took back a lot of our streets, through neighborhood watch programs and making gardens and playgrounds in vacant lots. But you can rest assured, if I cannot defend myself, I would refuse to even try.

Supertac45 · January 18th, 2008, 10:22 AM

Good info.

libertarian5 · January 18th, 2008, 01:44 PM

I've been visiting Organ Pipe since I was a small child. My dad's ashes are spread there, and my mom wants hers put there as well. I still go once a year or so and hike a bit. The trails are trashed from all the water bottles and stuff left by folks hiking through. IMO, this will continue as long as we have social security cards that can be made on a home printer and employers who don't care as long as they can pay low wages.

I've run into groups of aliens a few times - they usually lay low during the days and hike at night when helicopters can't find them. The place is crawling with law enforcement - Border Patrol, Park Service Lawmen, military choppers, and state police. It's not enough.

It would be great if the park service rules were re-written to match the forest service policy of allowing CCW holders to carry on the land they administer.

BlackPR · January 19th, 2008, 10:00 AM

I wrote yesterday to the Public Employeers for Environmental Responsibility. One of the groups who has been tracking violent offenses and danger within our national parks. I was hoping to get a "we support the opening of the ban on legal weapons in National Parks"... They're at Public Employees for Environmental Responsibility: Homepage

I will not reveal who it was that replied to me, but here was their reply -- remember this is a group whose motto is "Protecting employees who protect our environment":

While I personally agree with you, PEER does not typically take organizational positions on an issue unless it is in direct service of employees on whose behalf we are working.

I'm fine with that. It was a neutral response. I would like to reply and ask, respectfully, whether they have considered this from the perspective of "safety in the parks" issue. To do so, I would like to be able to cite some facts on where Conceal Carry was able to reduce crime in a fairly specific and well documented way.

help anyone?

Cloudpeak · January 19th, 2008, 11:13 AM

You've probably seen this site but, in case you haven't:

The Morning Report for Friday, January 18, 2008

Cloudpeak

BlackPR · January 19th, 2008, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cloudpeak

You've probably seen this site but, in case you haven't:

The Morning Report for Friday, January 18, 2008

Cloudpeak

That's a great link. I've written them and asked for the last year of Morning Reports. I'm also considering a FOIA request on all Law Enforcement incidents in National Parks for the last two years. I want to kill this "our national parks are safe and you don't need a CCW" argument once and for all.

Tenring · January 19th, 2008, 07:37 PM

Great job, everybody!

This should be required reading for those anti-gunners who somehow imagine honest citizens who want to carry in these Parks are only gun nuts wanting to plink at Bambi, use the signs for target practice, and swagger around threatening to drill holes in all the peaceful, non-armed visitors and their leashed puppies.

After reading a number of the articles, it is obvious changing the rules and allowing armed carry will not turn these Parks into "The Wild West", as feared by the clueless who fear guns. They already are The Wild West!

BlackPR · January 22nd, 2008, 11:56 AM

I just got off the phone with the National Park Service office responsible for Freedom of Information Act requests. I was basically trying to get a feel for what it would take to get a list of a "crime in our National Parks, including all violent crimes"...

The answer? "There is no centralized location for this information. To get it, we would have to research the information for each park."

For this FREE information that I have a right to, I was informed that it could lead to "thousands of dollars of research (hourly) and copying fees". Ack!

I may submit the FOIA anyway and put a cost limiter in it (you can say, "please notify me if costs exceed $xxx dollars).

I think with a bit of work, this CC issue in National Parks can be an easy win.

BlackPR · January 22nd, 2008, 01:01 PM

Turns out I'm able to request a waiver of fees. The FOIA is sent! Hopefully in a few weeks (months?) I'll have an extensive database of 2006/2007 National Park Incidents as described here: Incident Reporting Procedures

Here's a copy of my letter.

Quote:

January 22, 2008

Diane Cooke
(ORG CODE 2550)
Office of the Chief Information Officer
1849 C Street NW
Mail Stop: 1201 Eye Street, NW, 8th Floor
Washington, DC 20240

FOIA REQUEST

Fee waiver requested

Dear FOI Officer:

Pursuant to the federal Freedom of Information Act, 5 U.S.C. § 552, I request access to and copies of All Level 1 and Level 2 incidents reported by all agencies to the Department per the National Park Service "Incident Reporting Procedures" for the years of 2006 and 2007. These need not include follow-up reports. A reference to the CY2000 Incident Reporting Procedures can be found at: Incident Reporting Procedures but any incident classifications added since CY2000 should also be included.

I would like to receive the information in electronic format. (on CD-ROM.)

Please waive any applicable fees. Release of the information is in the public interest because it will contribute significantly to public understanding of government operations and activities. Ultimately this information will be published via the internet and other publication methods along with summaries, statistical analysis and author conclusions in terms of over-all safety of our National Park system as a whole (e.g., not on a per-park basis). This is of general interest to the public at large and the total intended use is to provide it ultimately to the public in both analyzed and un-analyzed versions. It is the intent that ultimately several articles in the public interest will be authored directly.

If my request is denied in whole or part, I ask that you justify all deletions by reference to specific exemptions of the act. I will also expect you to release all segregable portions of otherwise exempt material. I, of course, reserve the right to appeal your decision to withhold any information or to deny a waiver of fees.

I look forward to your reply within 20 business days, as the statute requires.

Thank you for your assistance.

Sincerely,

Can you folks tell I'm a bit peeved about this issue?

Tenring · January 22nd, 2008, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackPR

Hopefully in a few weeks (months?) I'll have an extensive database of 2006/2007 National Park Incidents as described here: Incident Reporting Procedures

Good job!

But I'd wager you won't see this until at least this time next year - long after the present Administration is out of office (and it's either a done deal or too late).

If bureaucrats are adept at anything, it's the "slow roll".

January 18th, 2008, 09:45 AM	#11
BlackPR Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Lakewood Colorado Posts: 559	Organ Pipe Cactus National Monument Number one on the "Most Dangerous National Parks" list is Organ Pipe Cactus National Monument. The number of murders in the post above is deceptively low as MANY bodies are recovered from Organ Pipe Cactus National Monument each year. Many due to exposure, but almost all occuring during the commission of a crime (drug or people smuggling). But unless it's obviously a "murder" it doesn't make the list. 60,000 to 80,000 pounds of marijuana were seized in Organ Pipe last year. An estimated 1,000 illegal immigrants can pass through Organ Pipe in a single day. Organ Pipe and Saguaro were referred to in the Fraternal Order of Police report on Most Dangerous national parks as "home to body dumping, smuggling and poaching." While most of the danger in Saguaro is faced by park rangers themselves, [Ranger Karen] Bradford says visitors should realize that a natural preserve so close to Tucson isn't going to be Disneyland. "Bad people come into the park, just like in the city." Many of the people who oppose Conceal Carry (or even Open Carry) in National Parks proclaim that to do so will make it a place where they won't feel safe to take their families and they will lose their Parks. Organ Pipe Cactus National Monument is apparently lost. How do we "take it back?" The short answer is not Law Enforcement. By their own admission, even a doubling of budgets would only be a start to resolving the problem. Taking it back means USING it. The same way we took back a lot of our streets, through neighborhood watch programs and making gardens and playgrounds in vacant lots. But you can rest assured, if I cannot defend myself, I would refuse to even try. __________________ Truth and falsehood are both whatever and simultaneously not so, rather than not. Colorado Gun Law FAQ's: http://rmgo.org/faq/

January 18th, 2008, 10:22 AM	#12
Supertac45 VIP Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Michigan's U.P. Posts: 2,847	Good info. __________________ Les Baer 45 Sig Man N.R.A. Patron Life Member M.C.R.G.O.

January 19th, 2008, 10:00 AM	#14
BlackPR Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Lakewood Colorado Posts: 559	I wrote yesterday to the Public Employeers for Environmental Responsibility. One of the groups who has been tracking violent offenses and danger within our national parks. I was hoping to get a "we support the opening of the ban on legal weapons in National Parks"... They're at Public Employees for Environmental Responsibility: Homepage I will not reveal who it was that replied to me, but here was their reply -- remember this is a group whose motto is "Protecting employees who protect our environment": *While I personally agree with you, PEER does not typically take organizational positions on an issue unless it is in direct service of employees on whose behalf we are working.* I'm fine with that. It was a neutral response. I would like to reply and ask, respectfully, whether they have considered this from the perspective of "safety in the parks" issue. To do so, I would like to be able to cite some facts on where Conceal Carry was able to reduce crime in a fairly specific and well documented way. help anyone? __________________ Truth and falsehood are both whatever and simultaneously not so, rather than not. Colorado Gun Law FAQ's: http://rmgo.org/faq/

January 19th, 2008, 07:37 PM	#17
Tenring Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: North Carolina Posts: 49	Great job, everybody! This should be required reading for those anti-gunners who somehow imagine honest citizens who want to carry in these Parks are only gun nuts wanting to plink at Bambi, use the signs for target practice, and swagger around threatening to drill holes in all the peaceful, non-armed visitors and their leashed puppies. After reading a number of the articles, it is obvious changing the rules and allowing armed carry will not turn these Parks into "The Wild West", as feared by the clueless who fear guns. They already are The Wild West! __________________ "The constitutions of most of our States assert that all power is inherent in the people; that . . . it is their right and duty to be at all times armed. . . ." Letter from Thomas Jefferson to Justice John Cartwright (June 5, 1824)

January 22nd, 2008, 11:56 AM	#18
BlackPR Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Lakewood Colorado Posts: 559	I just got off the phone with the National Park Service office responsible for Freedom of Information Act requests. I was basically trying to get a feel for what it would take to get a list of a "crime in our National Parks, including all violent crimes"... The answer? "There is no centralized location for this information. To get it, we would have to research the information for each park." For this FREE information that I have a right to, I was informed that it could lead to "thousands of dollars of research (hourly) and copying fees". Ack! I may submit the FOIA anyway and put a cost limiter in it (you can say, "please notify me if costs exceed $xxx dollars). I think with a bit of work, this CC issue in National Parks can be an easy win. __________________ Truth and falsehood are both whatever and simultaneously not so, rather than not. Colorado Gun Law FAQ's: http://rmgo.org/faq/

January 18th, 2008, 01:44 PM	#13
libertarian5 Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: 4 Corners Posts: 248	I've been visiting Organ Pipe since I was a small child. My dad's ashes are spread there, and my mom wants hers put there as well. I still go once a year or so and hike a bit. The trails are trashed from all the water bottles and stuff left by folks hiking through. IMO, this will continue as long as we have social security cards that can be made on a home printer and employers who don't care as long as they can pay low wages. I've run into groups of aliens a few times - they usually lay low during the days and hike at night when helicopters can't find them. The place is crawling with law enforcement - Border Patrol, Park Service Lawmen, military choppers, and state police. It's not enough. It would be great if the park service rules were re-written to match the forest service policy of allowing CCW holders to carry on the land they administer.

January 19th, 2008, 11:13 AM	#15
Cloudpeak Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Wyoming Posts: 129	You've probably seen this site but, in case you haven't: The Morning Report for Friday, January 18, 2008 Cloudpeak

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