RSSZ

Ask your Gunsite guru's to show you the documentation of how many "sleepers" were used in the last 1000 roberies. My thought---you can train as good as possible but some of you think that you can be ready for ANYTHING. I respectfully do not agree. If you make the people in the back the bus a priority then you will simply be killed by the people in the front row. Simply put >>is there a remote possibility that a "sleeper could exist ?? YES; Is it a possibility that the BG could have just graduated from his 5th Gunsite class ?? YES. In the fast food scanerieo I would be more worried about another CCW trying to "help" and then him and me havin' an ol' fashioned stare down. To the point that I have brought up in several other threads,can we be ready,prepared,or trained for ANY situation ?? No,but we can set our priorities and train,train,train.--------- Betty, Love your post.This is what I try to instill in the women that I teach. It's your life,it's your body,fight for it. Get mad,get mean,don't just defend,ATTACK!!-------

Tangle

Man, calm down. What do you base your claims on?

I'm basing my comments on what Gunsite and Thunder Ranch both emphasize. Clint uses, "Wolves travel in packs" and "If you see one BG, look for another." Both schools make it clear that all the BGs may not be in sight at the same time.

I don't see what the heat is about. I'm not saying we need to go around IDing everybody, just don't get target focused and do look around for anything that might give away an overlooked BG before and after. What's so bad about that?

grnzbra

Ideally, you'd get some training. However, reality,practicality etc can prevent that. However, there is a lot of published material out there. Books and videos supliment each other. The shortcoming of books and vids is the stuff that has been left out and is only taught in class. Also, you don't have the instructor there to critique your application of the lesson. However, in boards such as this, you will run into a lot of people who have attended the classes and will share their knowldege.

As far as simulating the stress of a real justified lethal force situation, it can be simulated to some degree with force on force training. Gabe Suarez has a book about it which is just about as close to a how to run a FOF class as you can get. Get the book, get some buddies and get some airsoft guns and gear. Get a rubber knife an do a Teuller drill "for real". Then do it from 5 yards. Then do it from 3 yards. Concealed under normal street wear (try it with the gun under some kind of pullover that can't be just swept away like a photographer's vest).

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There's a reason The Sopranos is set in New Jersey.
Basic Pistol

St Michael

1) Lord, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change (there will always be Bad guys), courage to change the things I can (God expects us to respect our own life and that of other innocents to the point of necessitating self defense against an unjust agressor) and the wisdom to know the difference.

Given there will always be Bad guys, and I have the God-given self-determination to fulfill the duty to protect myself, I don't see where I have any option except to be armed and ready.

And then there's this from my Church's catechism:

Legitimate defense

2263 The legitimate defense of persons and societies is not an exception to the prohibition against the murder of the innocent that constitutes intentional killing. "The act of self-defense can have a double effect: the preservation of one's own life; and the killing of the aggressor. . . . The one is intended, the other is not."65

2264 Love toward oneself remains a fundamental principle of morality. Therefore it is legitimate to insist on respect for one's own right to life. Someone who defends his life is not guilty of murder even if he is forced to deal his aggressor a lethal blow:


If a man in self-defense uses more than necessary violence, it will be unlawful: whereas if he repels force with moderation, his defense will be lawful. . . . Nor is it necessary for salvation that a man omit the act of moderate self-defense to avoid killing the other man, since one is bound to take more care of one's own life than of another's.66
2265 Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for one who is responsible for the lives of others. The defense of the common good requires that an unjust aggressor be rendered unable to cause harm. For this reason, those who legitimately hold authority also have the right to use arms to repel aggressors against the civil community entrusted to their responsibility.

gunthorp

"What are the duties required in the sixth commandment?" and answers that the duties required are "...all lawful endeavors to preserve the life of ourselves and others... by just defense against violence..., and [by] protecting and defending the innocent." Question 136 goes on to deal with what is forbidden in the sixth commandment, and gives the answer, "...all taking away the life of ourselves, or others, except in case of public justice, lawful war, or necessary defense."

-Westminster Larger Catechism, penned in the mid 1640’s



I must be prepared to DEFEND AGAINST (instead of the word KILL) everyone I meet.

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Don't dither. The nick of time comes just before the moment lost.

XD40

I appreciate the response. I do read as much as I can (I have been considering some videos) and certainly the information on this board has opened my eyes to many issues, options and such. Thanks to everyone here, I now have a BOB and SHTF bag and am making other decisions regarding what firearms I keep. I have been swayed by recent discussions concerning weapons that share common parts like mags. Something to think about. It is also very obvious to anyone who might read the posts here, that you all take the responsibility of carrying a weapon very seriously.

Tangle

One of many interesting Bible verses on self-defense:
2 "If a thief is caught breaking in and is struck so that he dies, the defender is not guilty of bloodshed;
3 but if it happens after sunrise, he is guilty of bloodshed.

And Nehimiah 4 is a "blueprint" for a corporate (family, community, etc.) plan of self-defense. Notice if the "builders", "carried".

rachilders

You know, my biggest nightmare is a face off situation where the BG has a hostage. What do you do? If you don't drop your weapon, the BG say's he will shoot the hostage (may have already shot others, so the threat is credable). If you DO drop your weapon, you are now helpless and you and the hostage may be shot anyway. If I were absolutely, 100% certain that the BG would walk away if I surrendered my weapon, I would consider it. However, as far as I know, there are very, very few 100% guarantees in life and a BG with a gun and a hostage is not the most reliable of situations to be accepting someones word of honor.

For me, I suppose it all revolves around the safety of myself and of others. I have always said that I would NEVER surrender my weapon to a BG of my own free will. Once I did, I would just be another victim for the taking with no bargaining chip or means of self defense. Still, if a BG had a gun to my wife's or one of my childrens head and the BG said drop the gun or the hostage will be shot, I would have to think about the possibility of doing as he said. Tough call, to say the least!

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"... Americans. We're homesteaders, we want a safe home, to keep the money we make, and shoot bad guys." -- Denny Crane

P95Carry

ra - the one thing that should apply in a hostage situation is that a BG with even just a single brain cell must know that if he were to shoot a hostage, he is most certainly next in line for a bullet. Unless he is planning suicide, he has few options - tho that does not help you or me when faced with a loved one being held.

It is truly a nightmare scenario - but one which does require some thought.

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Chris - P95
NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

"To own a gun and assume that you are armed
is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."

If a BG dies as the result of pointing a gun at me, then he has merely succumbed to an occupational hazard of being a thug

TheGreatGonzo

Rachilders,
Regarding hostages and giving up your gun: Try reading a book called "The Onion Field". It involves cops, not civilians, but the lessons to be learned are the same.
Gonzo

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Sometimes good people have to do bad things to bad people to keep bad people from doing bad things to good people.