That first shot

P95Carry · October 11th, 2005, 09:43 PM

Our discussion on another thread re double taps or not - etc - got me to thinking about the vital nature of our first shot, even if we make multiple shots.

It is in fact just our old friend, shot placement. If a BG has you under threat such that you have no choice but to shoot - that first shot somehow has to be controlled enough to count and if possible do max damage - such that your follow-ups if needed can come without return fire.

If the first shot ''connects'' but does little more than clip the guy's arm then it is possible it will hardly be noticed and will possibly also simply rile him up!

One of my old practice routines with SP, which I have not done enough with SIG - is draw and fire one only, reholster - repeat. The challenge is to get that shot where it counts even if it takes a few milli seconds longer to achieve (using sights or not) - whereas the attempts I have made at absolute max speed have never been what I regard as adequate at all. I like to train to get faster but sometimes fast in this context can be too fast.

With the SIG I have a DA pull to deal with - no biggie and in fact it is ''kinder'' than the DA on the SP. I do think tho practice with a bias on that first shot accuracy is a good idea - because that is the one that could count for most - setting up if you will the sequence of events that follow.

Agree - disagree?

Fjolnirsson · October 11th, 2005, 10:15 PM

Well, I'd have to agree. After all, a fast miss does me no good at all. Even if you hit the bad guy with the second shot, where does that first one go? Into a wall? Or into someone's daughter? Ultimately, we are responsible for every round we fire. That's what makes me train when I want to stop. I've gotta know where those rounds are gonna go.

rocky · October 11th, 2005, 10:39 PM

I agree, there may be a time where 1 well put shot is the most important.

gunthorp · October 12th, 2005, 01:15 AM

We tend to put our faith in the almighty hi-cap mag. Big mistake. P95, you're right on track. Fjol, well said. We are morally and ethically responsible for the resting place of every round we fire. But that first round, done right, can decide the issue. That isn't to say stop there. At the very least, the first shot will enable followups to stop the threat. With more than one threat, the more reason to practice that first shot for effect.

san antone rr · October 12th, 2005, 01:43 AM

I gotta admit I don't do as much draw/shoot/reholster as I should. Need to find a range here in the Ol'Alamo City that is tactical friendly. Most are freaked as soon as you pull a piece and shoot it like you wanna defend yourself...Will keep looking.

Stephen A. Camp · October 12th, 2005, 01:52 AM

Hello. I agree. As has been said before by others, "We cannot miss fast enough to win." I also believe that the better we can make our first shot, the fewer subsequent shots might be required.

Best.

older gunner · October 12th, 2005, 02:52 AM

While I certainly agree with the need for draw and fire practice, the range I shoot at will not allow it. Don't know how to get around the problem. Sure wish I could find someplace to shoot where I was outside and could do my thing.

acparmed · October 12th, 2005, 04:42 AM

To quote Wyatt Earp, "The secret to winning a gunfight is to take your time...in a hurry."

Those of us who train will understand that concept clearly.

I think everyone has the right idea here. However, "Anything worth being shot once is worth shooting twice, ammo's cheap, life isn't." When I train at the range I religiously practice; hands clear, draw, 'hammer' to COM, threat scan, rehoulster.
As most of you know I carry a 1911 so this answers a question from another thread. Yes, I double tap with a .45, there are a lot of situations out there that 1 COM hit from a handgun just doesn't do the job. Even if the BG is wearing concealable body armor, two 230gr Hydra-Shoks will give him pause, during which I will make the third round end the problem.
Legally you can argue that that is the way you've been trained, to fire two rounds COM and evaluate this situation. This is common training in any self-defence firearms training school.

Quote:

Originally Posted by older gunner

While I certainly agree with the need for draw and fire practice, the range I shoot at will not allow it. Don't know how to get around the problem.

The way I got around the problem is to become known at the range, let them see (frequently) that you are an experienced shooter. Go to the range often and get to know everyone who works there. Become a member. Shoot and hang around. At the range I go to (indoors) I'm allowed to practice anything I wish as long as it's done from the firing line, (they won't let me close the range and set-up an IDPA course of fire, but I'm working on it).

So yes, that first shot is critically important, but so is a quick follow-up.

I'm not going to bet my life on the immediate leathality of one handgun shot, even with a .45ACP and a high tech bullet design. If, as claimed, the .45 230 gr Hydra-Shok has a 96% one-stop-shot record, I'm going to have a 192% chance of stopping the BG.

That works for me.

Free American · October 12th, 2005, 10:24 AM

But here is the problem that most people forget...unless it's a head shot the BG is still capable of killing you. And I do not feel a head shot is appropriate most of the time. I don't care how many times you shoot the BG, he most likely can and will keep coming for 30 seconds. If you hit the heart or lungs it will probably put him down, but he can still shoot from the ground.

san antone rr · October 12th, 2005, 10:30 AM

My CHL instructor taught me to shoot to ground, re-eval then shoot to stop. If the BG is on the ground and I still deem him a threat, (reaching for or bringing firarm to bear) I'm still putting shots COM or ducking for cover.

P95Carry · October 12th, 2005, 12:30 PM

For those guys who are restricted at their range from doing draw-fire-reholster ......... there is at least some benefit from the same drill in dry fire mode (IMO). I'd suggest for that too, inserting a weighted mag so as to reproduce the gun's max weight as if fully loaded.

Obviously no hits to be seen but - the one thing it does do is help that muscle memory plus, help you to tell just how well or badly the gun has come up as you get a brief snapshot of the sights.

I am lucky because my two local ranges - tho small - are really private clubs and outdoors - often I have place to myself and I can do most drills.

FortyFive · October 12th, 2005, 02:06 PM

Our range will not allow us to draw from the holster. I brought my timer to the range and set a delay of a few seconds after laying my gun on the bench with with the safety on. When the timer sounded I picked up my gun and fired a single round then checked the elapsed time. I didn't hurry for super speed it was more to present safely a first shot in a reasonable time frame.
Maybe not the best solution but it was a good drill for me.

Euclidean · October 12th, 2005, 02:24 PM

I'm all for making the first shot precise as it is fast and vice versa, but why such a hurry to reholster? Honestly in the real world, would you want to put your gun away after firing it?

san antone rr · October 12th, 2005, 03:51 PM

For me, reholster is just a necessary step in the draw/fire drill. I dry fire drill all the time in my house, but don't reholster as part of the drill. It just naturally follows.

P95Carry · October 12th, 2005, 04:52 PM

Richard - your enforced reduced method is still IMO most useful - as you have to aquire a grip and some degree of sighting. You still get some muscle memory for general hold etc.

Euc - the reholster is not really part of the drill - it is more a ''reset'' ready to run the drill over again - seeing as the way I like to do it includes the draw.

Therefore - have to go back in the rig

XD40 · October 12th, 2005, 06:52 PM

The old double tap works fine if presented with a single target. DT'ing when there are two or more targets may just allow the other to get you. I read somewhere recently of a tactic for more than one attacker. Shoot one once (which one is your call based on proximity, threat etc) then double tap second target, return to first target for finishing shot if needed. They didn't say anything about more than two targets. My guess would be single shot each (there is that peskly first shot importance again) then return to targets as necassary to neutralize. Any thoughts?

P95Carry · October 12th, 2005, 10:10 PM

XD - I think we can say - ''Play it as you see it'' - if in fact thinking time is available!!

Bottom line - making every shot count and count well - would be I think our ultimate wish and objective.

gunthorp · October 12th, 2005, 10:24 PM

The double, pair, hammer (by any name) can be so fast that I would prolly use against each and every BG in the croud, with a triage mindset for priority. Makes me want to get two shoulder rigs and practice the two handed crossdraw like Bruce Willis in "Last Man Standing."

BlueLion · October 13th, 2005, 08:27 PM

Heck, I think nowadays if you are CCW and bad guy runs up he really does not expect you to be packing so once you pull it and use it he will probably already be footing out of there. Today on the news a a BG drove up on bus stop and attempted to rob an 11 year old boy of his sneakers. Well turns out the little boy had won them at school and they were fairly expensive. Well the fought back! He used his umbrella and drove the BG off. How about that.....no pistol just the will to survive and we fuss about 9, 38 or 45. Kids keep it simple....

RSSZ · October 16th, 2005, 12:03 PM

First shot(or two) does count a great deal IMO. When I go to the range to train with my carry weapon(Kimber),I set up all my stuff and when ready to get started,I start with a regular presentation with my carry weapon and double tap a target or two. I might start with my back to the target or with the target off to my right side at a 45-90 degree angle(I'm right handed). This reenforces the fact that I am ready with all the things that I routinely carry everyday. This is my "first shot" drill. I feel that it is very important. I do this with my students also.(one at a time,with extreme safety in mind)I don't give them a chance to get ready. Just present, and engauge.RIGHT NOW !! Yeah,I'm heartless,but it sure makes them aware and it gives them confidence.-----------Edit: Still never,repeat,NEVER,had a FTF or fire or a FTE from my tinie weenie 3" bbl gun. Imagine that! Must be just pure luck.------------

October 11th, 2005, 09:43 PM	#1
P95Carry Assistant Administrator Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: South West PA Posts: 25,466	That first shot Our discussion on another thread re double taps or not - etc - got me to thinking about the vital nature of our first shot, even if we make multiple shots. It is in fact just our old friend, shot placement. If a BG has you under threat such that you have no choice but to shoot - that first shot somehow has to be controlled enough to count and if possible do max damage - such that your follow-ups if needed can come without return fire. If the first shot ''connects'' but does little more than clip the guy's arm then it is possible it will hardly be noticed and will possibly also simply rile him up! One of my old practice routines with SP, which I have not done enough with SIG - is draw and fire one only, reholster - repeat. The challenge is to get that shot where it counts even if it takes a few milli seconds longer to achieve (using sights or not) - whereas the attempts I have made at absolute max speed have never been what I regard as adequate at all. I like to train to get faster but sometimes fast in this context can be too fast. With the SIG I have a DA pull to deal with - no biggie and in fact it is ''kinder'' than the DA on the SP. I do think tho practice with a bias on that first shot accuracy is a good idea - because that is the one that could count for most - setting up if you will the sequence of events that follow. Agree - disagree? __________________ Chris - P95 NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member. "To own a gun and assume that you are armed is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!." If a BG dies as the result of pointing a gun at me, then he has merely succumbed to an occupational hazard of being a thug

October 11th, 2005, 10:15 PM	#2
Fjolnirsson Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Oregon, the rainy part. Posts: 273	Well, I'd have to agree. After all, a fast miss does me no good at all. Even if you hit the bad guy with the second shot, where does that first one go? Into a wall? Or into someone's daughter? Ultimately, we are responsible for every round we fire. That's what makes me train when I want to stop. I've gotta know where those rounds are gonna go. __________________ "Water can flow, or it can crash. Be like water, my friend."-Bruce Lee My Blog "Luck, often enough, will save a man if his courage does hold."

October 12th, 2005, 01:15 AM	#4
gunthorp Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Lake Superior Posts: 1,053	We tend to put our faith in the almighty hi-cap mag. Big mistake. P95, you're right on track. Fjol, well said. We are morally and ethically responsible for the resting place of every round we fire. But that first round, done right, can decide the issue. That isn't to say stop there. At the very least, the first shot will enable followups to stop the threat. With more than one threat, the more reason to practice that first shot for effect. __________________ Don't dither. The nick of time comes just before the moment lost.

October 12th, 2005, 01:43 AM	#5
san antone rr Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Look at my login Posts: 462	I gotta admit I don't do as much draw/shoot/reholster as I should. Need to find a range here in the Ol'Alamo City that is tactical friendly. Most are freaked as soon as you pull a piece and shoot it like you wanna defend yourself...Will keep looking. __________________ Steve December 9, 2005 (CNN) While interviewing an anonymous US Special Forces soldier on his sniper skills, a Reuters News agent asked the soldier what he felt when shooting members of Al Qaeda in Afghanistan. The soldier shrugged and replied, "Recoil."

October 12th, 2005, 10:24 AM	#9
Free American Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Virginia Posts: 709	But here is the problem that most people forget...unless it's a head shot the BG is still capable of killing you. And I do not feel a head shot is appropriate most of the time. I don't care how many times you shoot the BG, he most likely can and will keep coming for 30 seconds. If you hit the heart or lungs it will probably put him down, but he can still shoot from the ground. __________________ They who give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin Previously known as "cjm5874"

October 11th, 2005, 10:39 PM	#3
rocky Senior Moderator Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: MI Posts: 13,157	I agree, there may be a time where 1 well put shot is the most important.

October 12th, 2005, 01:52 AM	#6
Stephen A. Camp Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Southwest Posts: 463	Hello. I agree. As has been said before by others, "We cannot miss fast enough to win." I also believe that the better we can make our first shot, the fewer subsequent shots might be required. Best.

October 12th, 2005, 02:52 AM	#7
older gunner Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Florida Panhandle Posts: 694	While I certainly agree with the need for draw and fire practice, the range I shoot at will not allow it. Don't know how to get around the problem. Sure wish I could find someplace to shoot where I was outside and could do my thing.

October 12th, 2005, 10:30 AM	#10
san antone rr Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Look at my login Posts: 462	My CHL instructor taught me to shoot to ground, re-eval then shoot to stop. If the BG is on the ground and I still deem him a threat, (reaching for or bringing firarm to bear) I'm still putting shots COM or ducking for cover. __________________ Steve December 9, 2005 (CNN) While interviewing an anonymous US Special Forces soldier on his sniper skills, a Reuters News agent asked the soldier what he felt when shooting members of Al Qaeda in Afghanistan. The soldier shrugged and replied, "Recoil."

October 12th, 2005, 12:30 PM	#11
P95Carry Assistant Administrator Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: South West PA Posts: 25,466	For those guys who are restricted at their range from doing draw-fire-reholster ......... there is at least some benefit from the same drill in dry fire mode (IMO). I'd suggest for that too, inserting a weighted mag so as to reproduce the gun's max weight as if fully loaded. Obviously no hits to be seen but - the one thing it does do is help that muscle memory plus, help you to tell just how well or badly the gun has come up as you get a brief snapshot of the sights. I am lucky because my two local ranges - tho small - are really private clubs and outdoors - often I have place to myself and I can do most drills. __________________ Chris - P95 NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member. "To own a gun and assume that you are armed is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!." If a BG dies as the result of pointing a gun at me, then he has merely succumbed to an occupational hazard of being a thug

October 12th, 2005, 02:06 PM	#12
FortyFive Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 868	Our range will not allow us to draw from the holster. I brought my timer to the range and set a delay of a few seconds after laying my gun on the bench with with the safety on. When the timer sounded I picked up my gun and fired a single round then checked the elapsed time. I didn't hurry for super speed it was more to present safely a first shot in a reasonable time frame. Maybe not the best solution but it was a good drill for me. __________________ As you slide down the banister of life, May the splinters never point the wrong way. --- NRA Life Member

October 12th, 2005, 02:24 PM	#13
Euclidean VIP Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Texas Posts: 3,213	I'm all for making the first shot precise as it is fast and vice versa, but why such a hurry to reholster? Honestly in the real world, would you want to put your gun away after firing it? __________________ I am The Armed Educator.

October 12th, 2005, 03:51 PM	#14
san antone rr Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Look at my login Posts: 462	For me, reholster is just a necessary step in the draw/fire drill. I dry fire drill all the time in my house, but don't reholster as part of the drill. It just naturally follows. __________________ Steve December 9, 2005 (CNN) While interviewing an anonymous US Special Forces soldier on his sniper skills, a Reuters News agent asked the soldier what he felt when shooting members of Al Qaeda in Afghanistan. The soldier shrugged and replied, "Recoil."

October 12th, 2005, 04:52 PM	#15
P95Carry Assistant Administrator Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: South West PA Posts: 25,466	Richard - your enforced reduced method is still IMO most useful - as you have to aquire a grip and some degree of sighting. You still get some muscle memory for general hold etc. Euc - the reholster is not really part of the drill - it is more a ''reset'' ready to run the drill over again - seeing as the way I like to do it includes the draw. Therefore - have to go back in the rig __________________ Chris - P95 NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member. "To own a gun and assume that you are armed is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!." If a BG dies as the result of pointing a gun at me, then he has merely succumbed to an occupational hazard of being a thug

October 12th, 2005, 06:52 PM	#16
XD40 Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Florida Space Coast Posts: 117	The old double tap works fine if presented with a single target. DT'ing when there are two or more targets may just allow the other to get you. I read somewhere recently of a tactic for more than one attacker. Shoot one once (which one is your call based on proximity, threat etc) then double tap second target, return to first target for finishing shot if needed. They didn't say anything about more than two targets. My guess would be single shot each (there is that peskly first shot importance again) then return to targets as necassary to neutralize. Any thoughts? __________________ ---------------------------------------------- Bob McDuffee, co-host DogWatch Social Club Podcast Thoughtful Conversation, Considered Opinion and a Touch of Insanity "He who goes about unarmed in paradise, had better be sure that is where he is!" James Thurber

October 12th, 2005, 10:10 PM	#17
P95Carry Assistant Administrator Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: South West PA Posts: 25,466	XD - I think we can say - ''Play it as you see it'' - if in fact thinking time is available!! Bottom line - making every shot count and count well - would be I think our ultimate wish and objective. __________________ Chris - P95 NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member. "To own a gun and assume that you are armed is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!." If a BG dies as the result of pointing a gun at me, then he has merely succumbed to an occupational hazard of being a thug

October 12th, 2005, 10:24 PM	#18
gunthorp Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Lake Superior Posts: 1,053	The double, pair, hammer (by any name) can be so fast that I would prolly use against each and every BG in the croud, with a triage mindset for priority. Makes me want to get two shoulder rigs and practice the two handed crossdraw like Bruce Willis in "Last Man Standing." __________________ Don't dither. The nick of time comes just before the moment lost.

October 13th, 2005, 08:27 PM	#19
BlueLion Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: It Changes... Posts: 830	Heck, I think nowadays if you are CCW and bad guy runs up he really does not expect you to be packing so once you pull it and use it he will probably already be footing out of there. Today on the news a a BG drove up on bus stop and attempted to rob an 11 year old boy of his sneakers. Well turns out the little boy had won them at school and they were fairly expensive. Well the fought back! He used his umbrella and drove the BG off. How about that.....no pistol just the will to survive and we fuss about 9, 38 or 45. Kids keep it simple.... __________________ Listen, Think and React.....Nuff Said.....

October 16th, 2005, 12:03 PM	#20
RSSZ Distinguished Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Posts: 1,847	First shot(or two) does count a great deal IMO. When I go to the range to train with my carry weapon(Kimber),I set up all my stuff and when ready to get started,I start with a regular presentation with my carry weapon and double tap a target or two. I might start with my back to the target or with the target off to my right side at a 45-90 degree angle(I'm right handed). This reenforces the fact that I am ready with all the things that I routinely carry everyday. This is my "first shot" drill. I feel that it is very important. I do this with my students also.(one at a time,with extreme safety in mind)I don't give them a chance to get ready. Just present, and engauge.RIGHT NOW !! Yeah,I'm heartless,but it sure makes them aware and it gives them confidence.-----------Edit: Still never,repeat,NEVER,had a FTF or fire or a FTE from my tinie weenie 3" bbl gun. Imagine that! Must be just pure luck.------------ Last edited by RSSZ; October 16th, 2005 at 02:45 PM..

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