The Case for Weak-Sided Tools - Page 6

SIXTO · May 17th, 2008, 01:50 PM

So JD is the tool on your weak side? In other words, a weak sided tool?

Sorry its been a bad morning, I needed to pick on a Marine.

QKShooter · May 17th, 2008, 05:45 PM

Oh I totally understand what you folks are saying and I would hope that every kid would kick and scream and scratch and bite.
If only to get some of that Bad Guy blood spread around some and get that Perp DNA lodged up under their fingernails.

Sadly though in tests that were done where kids were previously drilled, warned and instructed by their parents - (you know the whole ball of wax) about not getting into cars and not going with or talking to strangers or accepting things from strangers...in actual surprise enacted scenarios ~ the kids failed miserably.

Not because they were dumb kids that didn't listen to their parents but simply because they were just immature kids being kids.

Usually one lie from an adult was all that was needed to toss all previous instructions and "supposedly learned behavior" right into the trash can.

Kids almost always trust, obey, comply, submit, believe, BIG PEOPLE.

That is one reason why crimes against kids are so horrifically terrible as in "preying" on the totally helpless.

Naturally you don't want to traumatize your kids to test them but, just be aware of the fact that most children - (even those that received extensive parental instruction) fall completely apart in simulated kidnap/abduction scenarios.

Some only an hour or so after being last instructed and reminded by a parent.

buckeyeLCPL · May 17th, 2008, 07:57 PM

Quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by buckeyeLCPL View Post
In civvies I'm not as prepared, and would have to just rely on a left hook or some such thing. Maybe naive on my part, but I'm a trained infantryman, and by no means small, so I'll probably stick with that.
This is kind of what I was talking about before. You are probably perfectly able to defend yourself hand-to-hand if need be. In fact, you, like my husband, could probably kick some serious butt if all that happened was someone just grabbed your arm.

I've seen my husband fight once and it wasn't even a "real" fight, but he had his opponent on the ground so fast and in a choke-hold so secure the kid's legs were flopping around like a dying fish.

I don't think I'd have QUITE that easy of a time of it. When JD and I "grapple" for training purposes he sometimes has to stifle laughs because I'm really trying my hardest and he's barely fazed. That is why when we "fight" he emphasizes using angles, pressure points and blows to weak points instead of brute strength. I'm no match for any tough guy when it comes to physical strength, but his groin is no match for my knee either (or his eyes to my thumb and so on).

That is key right there to H2h for defense, you need to know what to do to cause enough pain/damage that the opponent will no longer have the will to continue. I saw it a lot as a bouncer, one good move, like a solid punch or start wrenching someone's shoulder the way it's not supposed to bend, and the fight usually goes right out of people.

It's not like fighting a UFC fighter who is used to taking damage, most people aren't used to it. There is also the surprise factor thrown in there for the assailant.

A weak side tool is great, but when you can't have it you need to rely on what you do have. Even something as simple as stomping an assailant's foot with a high-heel or kicking them in the shins (actually a very effective move) could work wonders. Keep in mind most places to target with a knife are the same kinds of places you would target h2h, eyes, throat, solar plexus, ect...

Speed, Surprise, and Violence of action, that is the key.

MitchellCT · May 17th, 2008, 10:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by limatunes

I think it could be both. Certainly training should be used to prepare you for such an incident should you be unarmed, but the hardware can really give you an edge you may never have had and may never get if you didn't have it.

For instance, let's say you sprained your shoulder playing sports and while it's not a permanent disability it certainly hinders your ability to use its full capacity against your opponent. Suddenly, a tool, could REALLY help you out in that situation.

Or like me. Three and a half months pregnant, sick, weak, off-balance, adapting to a changing body and scared to death for my baby's well-being (especially if some creep grabs me). The little life within me is very fragile and so am I right now. In normal circumstances I very well may be able to use a trained move or technique to break his hold and run away, but yesterday I could barely walk across an airport with JD supporting me and helping me I was in so much pain and discomfort much less run away from a determined attacker.

Sometimes a piece of hardware can really help you out! I'd certainly do all I could without the hardware, but it's nice to have.

Actually, the last time I've had a debilitating sports injury was when I broke my right thumb in a jujitsu class.

That is what I get by being too stupid to stop after fracturing the bone and continuing until I snapped a dime sized piece of bone off the main bone, thus requiring a titanium screw in my right hand.

That injury and the subsequent recovery taught me several things:

1 - Shock & broken bones are G-d's way of telling you to sit down.

2 - Be able to fight, armed or unarmed, ambidextrously.

I like weapons.

I like them for strong side and for weak side use.

I believe in using a weapon before using empty hands because I'm a practical sort who isn't interested in giving an opponent any opportunity for success.

That said, sometimes they aren't the fastest thing to use, and accessing them can cause you to loose the initiative of immediate attack.

As for the situation presented, the arm grab, proximity may negate your ability to access a weapon, unless you create an opportunity.

I don't think it can be debated that tools are useful options.

The choice remains to determine if they are always the best option.

OzarksMagic · May 18th, 2008, 11:13 AM

Great thread. A lot to think about. Thanks.

Hagphish · May 18th, 2008, 12:56 PM

Very interesting disscusion...

I ALWAYS carry a surefire L1 clipped to me weak side front pocket. I have practiced (minimally) the technique of drawing the light, shining the would be attacker square in the eyes to temporarily disorient them and then a few strong blows with the bezel of the light.

This would not be as effective in broad daylight, but it can still be a grwat last ditch effort.

MitchellCT · May 18th, 2008, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hagphish

Very interesting disscusion...

I ALWAYS carry a surefire L1 clipped to me weak side front pocket. I have practiced (minimally) the technique of drawing the light, shining the would be attacker square in the eyes to temporarily disorient them and then a few strong blows with the bezel of the light.

This would not be as effective in broad daylight, but it can still be a grwat last ditch effort.

What did your practice consist of?

Hagphish · May 18th, 2008, 01:20 PM

I basically just practiced alone by drawing the light, flashing for about a second in the targeted area, and holding it in a way that striking with the business end would be fast and easy... Musacle memory.

I did,however, try this while messing around with my 6'5" 200 plus pound buddy. He didn't see it coming (it was in the middle of a sunny day outside) and he was totally disoriented by the flash of light. Needless to say, when it came time for the strike I just gave him a quick tap to the top of his dome.

I feel fairly comfortable with this technique as a last ditch effort.

Redneck Repairs · May 18th, 2008, 02:04 PM

Kudos on the post Lima , correct as usual . Have at least one weapon easily accessible to either hand . A guy i used to practice arrest control with is into akido , and what " always worked " just does not when you remove the classroom or " dojo " Back when i was undersheriff in a county here we ran felony stops with real felons from the jail . I was confident in my officers and " bet" the felons on the issue . My eyes were opened as were my officers , and i bought the " jail " 20 pizzas out of my pocket to feed everyone one night as a result . You think about how well armed you are in all likely hood . Your felon thinks about how to use any skills you have against you . Now i set there and saw a " jailbird " take the pistol from a currently trained cooper deciple ( courses one and two whatever they are numbered ) . Its mindset above all and frankly with that in mind we all loose . Your average felon ( acronym vca , not mine lol ) will literally do anything with no mind to the level of force . We as ccw however have to consider a stringent ladder of force , you cant shoot someone for the opening pawn ( the hary eyeball ) . Pay attention , Have weapons available to either hand. I carry a bug , however it and my main gun i can get into either hand . I have seen what felons can do , and it cost me a weeks pay to learn the lesson. That was cheap . As a side note no felon participated who was convicted of a violent crime , basically only dope dealers and check kiters . I did insure tho they had " time " so they could quiz the worst for info and i would see same . The boss did chew my butt for taking inmates on police training of this sort , I took both the chewing and the lessons to heart .

64zebra · May 18th, 2008, 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StevePVB

Lima & JD,

I know this is completely off topic. But.. why don't you folks move? I'm not suggesting you abandon our shared feelings of protecting ourselves, but at least find a place to live where it is not a constant battle of discussing how to arm yourselves before you go get the mail (or have a baby).

I have learned a lot from your posts. I just wish you could educate me less and live in a better neighborhood.

Steve

PS JD, Semper Fi Devil Dog

I know Lima addressed this a few posts up from here (and I don't want to answer for her), but.....
nowadays it doesn't matter where you live or which store you shop at, scumbags are everywhere anytime of day or night

I live in a "good" neighborhood on the "good" side of town and there are plenty of home invasions, car robberies, attempted carjackings, abductions at gunpoint, rapes, purse-snatchings, etc on our side of town. My wife and I are armed everytime we go out (and at least one pistol is at hand when at home). Its all about being prepared for the stuff to hit the fan.
A good example is the Wally World that is in our "good" neighborhood. Its been open for 2 years now and its been the scene of numerous parking lot robberies, attempted carjackings, the ending point of at least 2 police chases, and 2 shootings....and these are just the ones I happen to catch on the news. This is the same Wally World that we shop at...and shop armed!
Scumbags do not adhere to times of day, socio-economic status, certain sides of town, or certain places.

May 17th, 2008, 01:50 PM	#51
SIXTO VIP Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Here and There Posts: 9,979	So JD is the tool on your weak side? In other words, a weak sided tool? Sorry its been a bad morning, I needed to pick on a Marine. __________________ In a land of sheep, even a toothless wolf is king. Wake Up! The zombie invasion has begun years ago.

May 18th, 2008, 11:13 AM	#55
OzarksMagic Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Springfield, Mo area Posts: 56	Great thread. A lot to think about. Thanks. __________________ Taurus 85 Ultralite Keltec P-32 Grey Beretta 21A BobCat

May 18th, 2008, 12:56 PM	#56
Hagphish Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Mpls/STP Posts: 116	Very interesting disscusion... I ALWAYS carry a surefire L1 clipped to me weak side front pocket. I have practiced (minimally) the technique of drawing the light, shining the would be attacker square in the eyes to temporarily disorient them and then a few strong blows with the bezel of the light. This would not be as effective in broad daylight, but it can still be a grwat last ditch effort. __________________ I'm married to my Kahr.

May 18th, 2008, 01:20 PM	#58
Hagphish Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Mpls/STP Posts: 116	I basically just practiced alone by drawing the light, flashing for about a second in the targeted area, and holding it in a way that striking with the business end would be fast and easy... Musacle memory. I did,however, try this while messing around with my 6'5" 200 plus pound buddy. He didn't see it coming (it was in the middle of a sunny day outside) and he was totally disoriented by the flash of light. Needless to say, when it came time for the strike I just gave him a quick tap to the top of his dome. I feel fairly comfortable with this technique as a last ditch effort. __________________ I'm married to my Kahr.

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May 17th, 2008, 05:45 PM	#52
QKShooter Assistant Administrator Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Off Of The X Posts: 19,788	Oh I totally understand what you folks are saying and I would hope that every kid would kick and scream and scratch and bite. If only to get some of that Bad Guy blood spread around some and get that Perp DNA lodged up under their fingernails. Sadly though in tests that were done where kids were previously drilled, warned and instructed by their parents - (you know the whole ball of wax) about not getting into cars and not going with or talking to strangers or accepting things from strangers...in actual surprise enacted scenarios ~ the kids failed miserably. Not because they were dumb kids that didn't listen to their parents but simply because they were just immature kids being kids. Usually one lie from an adult was all that was needed to toss all previous instructions and "supposedly learned behavior" right into the trash can. Kids almost always trust, obey, comply, submit, believe, BIG PEOPLE. That is one reason why crimes against kids are so horrifically terrible as in "preying" on the totally helpless. Naturally you don't want to traumatize your kids to test them but, just be aware of the fact that most children - (even those that received extensive parental instruction) fall completely apart in simulated kidnap/abduction scenarios. Some only an hour or so after being last instructed and reminded by a parent.

May 18th, 2008, 02:04 PM	#59
Redneck Repairs VIP Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Colorado Posts: 5,141	Kudos on the post Lima , correct as usual . Have at least one weapon easily accessible to either hand . A guy i used to practice arrest control with is into akido , and what " always worked " just does not when you remove the classroom or " dojo " Back when i was undersheriff in a county here we ran felony stops with real felons from the jail . I was confident in my officers and " bet" the felons on the issue . My eyes were opened as were my officers , and i bought the " jail " 20 pizzas out of my pocket to feed everyone one night as a result . You think about how well armed you are in all likely hood . Your felon thinks about how to use any skills you have against you . Now i set there and saw a " jailbird " take the pistol from a currently trained cooper deciple ( courses one and two whatever they are numbered ) . Its mindset above all and frankly with that in mind we all loose . Your average felon ( acronym vca , not mine lol ) will literally do anything with no mind to the level of force . We as ccw however have to consider a stringent ladder of force , you cant shoot someone for the opening pawn ( the hary eyeball ) . Pay attention , Have weapons available to either hand. I carry a bug , however it and my main gun i can get into either hand . I have seen what felons can do , and it cost me a weeks pay to learn the lesson. That was cheap . As a side note no felon participated who was convicted of a violent crime , basically only dope dealers and check kiters . I did insure tho they had " time " so they could quiz the worst for info and i would see same . The boss did chew my butt for taking inmates on police training of this sort , I took both the chewing and the lessons to heart .