Fairfax County Police (WoW) From VCDL (UGLY) - Page 7

press1280 · June 30th, 2008, 06:37 AM

As a former Fairfax resident for 20 years, I can tell you the political atmosphere has gone far left recently. I know that shouldn't involve the cops but in reality they are a reflection of the government. That's why incidents like this would happen in Northern Virginia, but cops in rural areas wouldn't even blink.
With more and more liberal people in the county who won't get CC permits,not to mention illegal aliens who can't get CC permits anyway, anyone seen carrying will set off instant alarm bells to the younger cops, and I presume when they educate these new cops that firearms may not be something they spend a lot of time on. That's just my impression though, I may be way off base.........

FN1910 · June 30th, 2008, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LenS

Backup on car stops is a normal thing, providing an officer is available. They are the most risky (aside from DV cases) stops that any officer can make (e.g. more officers are hurt/killed at traffic stops than anything else), so two more eyes and another officer can increase safety for all.

I agree with the routine traffic stops being dangerous but I have never seen a routine stop where the officer calls for backup without some kind of reason but I am not a LEO, just friends with many. Also I am not saying it was wrong just wondering why and as I said maybe could shed some light on this incident. Maybe it was something the the fellow said to the LEO beyond I have a CWP and gun that caused him to react and call for backup.

Quote:

As for knowing the law, the academies don't teach everything there is to know about firearms law and most officers really aren't that knowledgeable in that area. In my state there is a 400 pg book published just on the firearms laws for LEOs . . . very few LEOs ever read it or try to understand it. I worked for the PD for 17 years as a Reserve PO, qualified with fellow officers and know how ignorant they are on the gun laws here. I've had our chief ask me about the gun laws. I'm aware of a situation where someone was arrested for "possession of a BB gun without a license" . . . there is no such thing in this state and no requirement for any license for BB guns.

There are a few basic laws out of that 400 page book that every LEO should know. I don't expect one to have everyone of them memorized but the basics are necessary. Things such as possession of a BB gun or that concealed permits including reciprical permits exist should be a basic knowledge. I don't really expect him to know the details of what states qualify but know that some do and check to see if they do. As my college professors used to tell us that we can't possibly know everything they tried to teach us but we should know how to find the information when we needed to.

Quote:

If you announce that you are carrying in my state, expect a felony stop! Many POs don't even know that citizens can carry a gun legally here and their reaction is likely to be predictable and unpleasant.

Please, what state are you in so I can avoid it or at least not carry in it. As with the fellow from NC if I get stopped I plan to tell the officer that I have a gun but have no intention of using it unless I have to. If the meer fact that I am legally carrying a gun causes a felony stop and that kind of fear out of a police officer then something needs to change. I don't know where you are talking about but I have never seen or heard of such of a reaction from any LEO around here and to make comments like that does the officers around here a disservice that they do not act like that.

SIXTO · June 30th, 2008, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FN1910

I agree with the routine traffic stops being dangerous but I have never seen a routine stop where the officer calls for backup without some kind of reason but I am not a LEO, just friends with many. Also I am not saying it was wrong just wondering why and as I said maybe could shed some light on this incident. Maybe it was something the the fellow said to the LEO beyond I have a CWP and gun that caused him to react and call for backup.

It isnt a matter of "calling for backup" I stop by other LEO's stops all the time and they do mine. Its a courtesy thing. Two cruisers at a traffic stop really means nothing, I'm not sure why people get all worked up about this.
If the cruisers are stacked directly behind one another, nothing to be concerned with. If the are in some funky looking configuration... then it might be something.

DaveH · June 30th, 2008, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LenS

If you announce that you are carrying in my state, expect a felony stop! Many POs don't even know that citizens can carry a gun legally here and their reaction is likely to be predictable and unpleasant.

Well this is Virginia. And there is a case (GOODMAN v. COMMONWEALTH OF VIRGINIA, COURT OF APPEALS OF VIRGINIA Record No. 1971-06-1 See: http://www.courts.state.va.us/opinio...wp/1971061.pdf) which some, if not all Police Academies teach, as it is an important Terry Stop case. The relevance here is that it clearly establishes that possession/carrying is not a crime in Virginia and not by itself "reasonable suspicion' to justify a Terry Stop -- much less a felony stop.

Quote:

Although the informant’s information provided Officer Ingram with reasonable suspicion to believe appellant possessed a firearm, nothing in the record provided reasonable suspicion for the belief that this possession was illegal. “Absent some disqualifying status (being a felon, juvenile, or drug possessor) or situs (being in a place where weapons are forbidden), it is not a crime to possess a weapon.” Jackson v. Commonwealth, 41 Va. App. 211, 231, 583 S.E.2d 780, 790 (2003) (en banc), rev’d on other grounds, 267 Va. 666, 594 S.E.2d 595 (2004).

BTW -- Before someone jumps me that the Fairfax situation was a concealed carry where the LEOs were wrong about reciprocity, I know. I am just commenting on the issue LenS raised about possession always resulting in a felony stop

in his home State.

jonesy_26 · June 30th, 2008, 10:40 AM

I drove through this area on my way to family vacation on the OBX, and I carried the whole way. I spent alot of time reviewing laws for each state I passed through. I would not have appreciated this scenario going down in front of my family.

The thing that this points out to me is how "unorthodox" carrying a gun still is in many areas of the country. There are many stories like this and it just shows how many agencies (or groups within) still don't know that we license holders are legal. I find it disturbing that we still have some risk of running into a situation where we could be arrested and have our property confiscated while doing nothing wrong. If the guy ran a red light, fine....give him his ticket and send him on his way.....there's just no excuse for the rest.

Don't we as citizens get told that ignorance of the law is no excuse for breaking it? The same should apply to the arresting officers in this case. I hope some action is taken to try to prevent this from happening again.

CR2008 · June 30th, 2008, 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob99VMI04

2. Three Fairfax County police officers prove the Keystone Kops are
alive and well
************************************************** ********

We haven't had any issues with the Fairfax County police in quite a
while now. I have found them to be one of the best run police
agencies in Virginia.

However, three officers tarnished that image last week when they
unlawfully arrested a North Carolina resident who was legally carrying
a handgun and had a North Carolina CHP.

Hold on tight - this is a weird story.

The gun owner was pulled over for running through a red light, a
charge which the gun owner disputes.

The gun owner, believing that he had to disclose he was lawfully armed
as they do in North Carolina, dutifully told the officer he had a NC
CHP and was indeed armed.

The officer seemed to ignore the statement, but very shortly two more
patrol units pulled up. The next thing the gun owner knew he is in a
"felony stop" mode. He was asked to walk backwards towards the
officers, who then disarmed and handcuffed him.

While trying to unloaded his gun, THEY DROPPED IT ONTO THE ROAD!

The two officers and a SERGEANT then proceeded to tell him that he was
under arrested for:

1. Having hollow point bullets, which they claimed were illegal in
Virginia (!)
2. Taking a loaded gun across the state line, which the gun owner
was told was a FELONY (!)
3. Having a concealed gun that the police said he couldn't have since
he was from North Carolina (!!)

His car and gun were impounded and he was taken off to a magistrate.

The magistrate looked at the charges and told the police officers that
they had just made a false arrest.

The officers pointed out the possession of hollow point bullets. The
magistrate asked, "are they teflon coated?"

"No," replied on of the officers.

"Then they are legal."

Trying to find something that would stick and justify the false
arrest, one of the officers said, "We couldn't verify that his North
Carolina permit is valid."

The magistrate looked at the permit, noticed the phone number on the
back where one can call to verify the permit, called the number, and
within a few minutes found out the permit was indeed valid.

The gun owner was ordered to be released.

After being released from custody, the gun owner was given a hard time
by another officer about getting his gun back, but he did finally get
it back.

If all of that isn't bad enough, the arresting officer went ahead and
gave the gun owner a ticket for the alleged offense of running a red
light!

In essence, with that brilliant move, the officer was practically
BEGGING the gun owner to PLEASE sue Fairfax County for the false arrest!

I have already talked to my high-level contact with the Fairfax County
PD about this entire situation and the gun owner has filed a formal
complaint.

In the past, Fairfax County PD has been very good when such internal
investigations are required. Now we will wait and see what happens.

What is clear is that Fairfax County PD needs to educate its officers
on:

1. Possession of hollow point bullets
2. Reciprocity laws
3. Lawful carriage of firearms across state lines
4. Safe gun handling (a few years ago unsafe gun handling by an
officer cause a gun to discharge, killing an unarmed, handcuffed man)

If that were me in this guys place, I would be really really looking on possibly trying to sue them... at lest that permit holder never got physically abused like some people I have read about.

CR2008 · June 30th, 2008, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FN1910

If the meer fact that I am legally carrying a gun causes a felony stop and that kind of fear out of a police officer then something needs to change. I don't know where you are talking about but I have never seen or heard of such of a reaction from any LEO around here and to make comments like that does the officers around here a disservice that they do not act like that.

I can understand what the poster of this threat is saying, because here in DeKalb country Metro Atlanta, if you are "made" while CCing or even OCing, LEOs have actually DRAWN their weapons on people before and even taken them face down when they had been informed they were carrying (while the permit holder never even resisted or made any threatening moves!), this is why I am SOOO HAPPY that it's not a legal requirement to inform officers that I am carrying unless they actually ask me, because the likely hood of one drawing his gun on me in DeKalb is scary enough, and I don't feel like getting tazered or kissing dirt, especially if the officer were ignorant of gun laws.

mcp1810 · June 30th, 2008, 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LenS

Backup on car stops is a normal thing, providing an officer is available. They are the most risky (aside from DV cases) stops that any officer can make (e.g. more officers are hurt/killed at traffic stops than anything else), so two more eyes and another officer can increase safety for all.

+1
Additional officers also make searching a vehicle ( when necessary) a lot safer. This allows an officer to focus his full attention on the search knowing that another officer has secured the operator. Also a lot of traffic stops result in vehicle being towed for various reasons. A second officer, if there is an arrest, allows the arresting officer to transport his prisoner without having to sit there waiting for the tow truck. And, depending on the time of day, it may be an opportunity for the officers to get together and figure out where to go for lunch!

Rob99VMI04 · June 30th, 2008, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CR2008

I can understand what the poster of this threat is saying, because here in DeKalb country Metro Atlanta, if you are "made" while CCing or even OCing, LEOs have actually DRAWN their weapons on people before and even taken them face down when they had been informed they were carrying (while the permit holder never even resisted or made any threatening moves!), this is why I am SOOO HAPPY that it's not a legal requirement to inform officers that I am carrying unless they actually ask me, because the likely hood of one drawing his gun on me in DeKalb is scary enough, and I don't feel like getting tazered or kissing dirt, especially if the officer were ignorant of gun laws.

The problem is in some states its a crime not to notify. This was an out of state resident that came from a state where you are required to tell them you have a gun. Therefore, unless your a resident of the state and you know beyond a reasonable doubt you do not have to notify most law abiding people are going to notify. Virginia is not a Notification state. You do not have to tell them you are armed. However, a programmed OHIO resident or North Carolina Resident may not know this and tell based on the knowledge of their own states. This is why its so important to know the Firearms laws in everystate when you travel. I usually down load and try and keep a copy for each state I'm going through.

InspectorGadget · June 30th, 2008, 12:57 PM

As far as a LEO with a degree goes my last duty station before I retired was at a US Navy Missile Test Facility with 3000+ Engineers, Literally Rocket Scientists, that had high IQ's, I would hear Hewlett Packard vs Texas Instruments Calculator arguments get heated almost to the point of taking swings at each other. Yes that had Multiple Masters Degrees, but a lot of them had no common sense whatsoever. They could give me the technical details of how to shoot down an ICBM, but had a hard time tying their shoes. A degree makes someone knowledgeable in a specific area but it does not make someone smart.

I also know guys that have dropped out of High school that I want there if TSHTF. They may not know rocket science but they do know how to get things done, and I can trust them with my life when things go bad.

Just because a LEO has a degree doesn't mean that I want him having unlimited power over me. The degree really means nothing when TSHTF, you need someone in charge that knows how to take charge. There were a lot of Police and Firemen in NO when Katrina hit probably with degrees, they were clueless until Gen Honree arrived because NO ONE was taking charge. Gen Honree showed up and said I am in charge and things immediately started going smoother.

June 30th, 2008, 06:37 AM	#61
press1280 Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: WV Posts: 273	As a former Fairfax resident for 20 years, I can tell you the political atmosphere has gone far left recently. I know that shouldn't involve the cops but in reality they are a reflection of the government. That's why incidents like this would happen in Northern Virginia, but cops in rural areas wouldn't even blink. With more and more liberal people in the county who won't get CC permits,not to mention illegal aliens who can't get CC permits anyway, anyone seen carrying will set off instant alarm bells to the younger cops, and I presume when they educate these new cops that firearms may not be something they spend a lot of time on. That's just my impression though, I may be way off base......... __________________ Everybody's got a game plan until they get hit

June 30th, 2008, 12:57 PM	#70
InspectorGadget Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: PENSACOLA, FL Posts: 166	As far as a LEO with a degree goes my last duty station before I retired was at a US Navy Missile Test Facility with 3000+ Engineers, Literally Rocket Scientists, that had high IQ's, I would hear Hewlett Packard vs Texas Instruments Calculator arguments get heated almost to the point of taking swings at each other. Yes that had Multiple Masters Degrees, but a lot of them had no common sense whatsoever. They could give me the technical details of how to shoot down an ICBM, but had a hard time tying their shoes. A degree makes someone knowledgeable in a specific area but it does not make someone smart. I also know guys that have dropped out of High school that I want there if TSHTF. They may not know rocket science but they do know how to get things done, and I can trust them with my life when things go bad. Just because a LEO has a degree doesn't mean that I want him having unlimited power over me. The degree really means nothing when TSHTF, you need someone in charge that knows how to take charge. There were a lot of Police and Firemen in NO when Katrina hit probably with degrees, they were clueless until Gen Honree arrived because NO ONE was taking charge. Gen Honree showed up and said I am in charge and things immediately started going smoother. __________________ Colt 1911 New Agent, CTLaser God Made all men, Sam Colt made a 5FT tall woman and a 300lb Gorilla equal.

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June 30th, 2008, 10:40 AM	#65
jonesy_26 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: SE MI Posts: 231	I drove through this area on my way to family vacation on the OBX, and I carried the whole way. I spent alot of time reviewing laws for each state I passed through. I would not have appreciated this scenario going down in front of my family. The thing that this points out to me is how "unorthodox" carrying a gun still is in many areas of the country. There are many stories like this and it just shows how many agencies (or groups within) still don't know that we license holders are legal. I find it disturbing that we still have some risk of running into a situation where we could be arrested and have our property confiscated while doing nothing wrong. If the guy ran a red light, fine....give him his ticket and send him on his way.....there's just no excuse for the rest. Don't we as citizens get told that ignorance of the law is no excuse for breaking it? The same should apply to the arresting officers in this case. I hope some action is taken to try to prevent this from happening again.