DaveH

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I got to thinking about the timing between this thread and the Heller thread.

I find it disturbing that we still have some risk of a felony stop until we prove that we are legal.

The Court goes back even beyond the US Constitution to Blackstone in asserting a basic right that some, sworn to uphold the law, feel we need to prove exist while facing down their drawn guns.

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I am neither a lawyer, nor I do not play one on television or on the Internet. I hope no one assumes that I am giving legal advice.

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Thumper

It's fairly common human behavior, that when telling or re-telling a story, we leave out small facts that color us in a bad light and embellish facts that support our story. Come on now, admit it... we ALL do it to some degree.

Having said that and having also been a LEO I'd like to just add, attitude is everything! A simple stop can easily be escalated to a high risk stop if the person being pulled over demonstrates an angry or aggressive attitude toward the officer coupled with the presence of a weapon.

I'm not taking sides here yet but... we really don't yet know the original officer's side of the story and I have to believe that he must have had some reason to call for and preform a "high risk stop".

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FN1910

That is what I was getting at and thought I had said that. I often see an officer having pulled someone over and another one who happens by stops by just in case. There is nothing wrong with this and a very good idea. I just wondered if the other two officers had happened by or were they called in to help. If they just happend by or even heard the conversation on the radio and decided to check it out becasue of a slow night is one thing but if the original had gotten on the radio calling for help in a panic mode may shed a different light on his thoughts during the stop.

I was on jury duty where a deputy sheriff had come across a fellow parked in a filling station lot late at night after it had closed. A Highway Patrolman stopped by to see if he needed help. A long story but before it was over with the fellow was charged with drunk driving. His trial was almost a joke and he did absolutely nothing to help himself. In fact the prosecutor and patrolman told me that if the man hadn't been stupid they really didn't have a case but he hung himself.

DaveH

I sure you are not suggesting that a bad attitude would justify a false arrest -- or even a felony stop without meeting the Terry Stop standards. Are you?

However, under Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. 1 (1968) attitude, hunches, etc don't justify a detention -- and here in Virginia under GOODMAN v. COMMONWEALTH OF VIRGINIA COURT OF APPEALS OF VIRGINIA Record No. 1971-06-1 (See: http://www.courts.state.va.us/opinio...wp/1971061.pdf) the simple presence of a gun doesn't.

IMHO there is a big gap between the concept of angry and the concept of aggressive. In addition, a lot of what some folk call aggressive is actually assertive. -- standing up for your rights and not being taken advantage of is one definition of being assertive. (see:Learning to be Assertive)

What some authoritarian personalities want is for everyone else to be passive. When these authoritarian personalities meet an assertive individual they react out of proportion to the situation -- and IF they abuse what authority they may have, they need to be called to task. Not just for the sake of their victims but, as importantly, to maintain the respect of others in the same position of authority.

I wasn't there. There may be more to the story, as you suggest. But for now I'm not assuming anything. Just talking about the information presented (albeit with a certain personal trust in the source) and reacting to comments about this type of situation, as though it were a hypothetical scenario.

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I am neither a lawyer, nor I do not play one on television or on the Internet. I hope no one assumes that I am giving legal advice.

Veni, Vidi, Velcro

SelfDefense

There is a significant difference between being angry and acting in an immature manner. You can be angry for whatever reason you like. But once you fail to comply with reasonable requests you will probably get yourself into trouble.

If one doesn't mind being detained, questioned and treated like a child, all in the name of some perceived right then that is your perogative. That is not being assertive. That is acting in a manner inconsistent with adult behavior.


It is not an assertive personality that is at issue. The police are in a position of authority. When they meet someone acting out, or someone who thinks they know more than they do, or someone who tries to explain their job to them then that 'assertive' individual is simply asking for a negative turn of events. And almost always, they get it.

There is a severe lack of facts and balance in the article presented. Virtually all of these situations can be handled without incident by simply doing the right thing.

DaveH

Yup!

Simply doing the right thing -- issuing a traffic citation and not making a false arrest -- would have been handling without incident.

__________________
I am neither a lawyer, nor I do not play one on television or on the Internet. I hope no one assumes that I am giving legal advice.

Veni, Vidi, Velcro

gglockster

I've been stopped (while NOT carrying) by a Park Policeman on the GW parkway in Virginia and the officer was in a foul mood and was just trying to escalate the situation. I just refused to let him bait me and I ended up being released without "winning" a ticket. I wonder if his (Federal) license check tied into the Virginia State Concealed Carry database and if this increased his anxiety level? In Virginia the DMV database is linked to the CCW database so when a stop happens the police know before approaching the car if the registered owner has a CCW.

I've also spoken with FCPD officers and most of the time they are fair, low key and know the Laws. I met one on my front lawn (I had called for a Police officer to go with me to deal with a neighbor) and I told him that I had a CCW and wasn't carrying. He chastised me and suggested that I should ALWAYS carry. My conclusion has been the more experienced FCPD officers handle these situations better. It does worry me that three FCPD officers could not get it right collectively.

razz

Did you tell the park ranger about your CHP or did he ask if you were armed? I drove on the GW parkway while carrying and didn't know it was a national park road. I hope the new law passes.

hpj3

Contrary to much of your post, many LEOs in SC are not current in SC CWP law. I routinely field questions from people from all over the state re something a LEO has told them. I have also found this to be true in GA. I have intervened with several LE agencies when one of their own has done something ignorant (vs stupid: ignorance can be corrected through training, but you can't fix stupid).

The situation is slowly getting better, but the fact remains that CJA puts little emphasis on this, and until a situation arises similar to the OP, many rookies don't realize their ignorance.

Doesn't help that there's been an influx of new LE from out-of-state, a significant number of which are from, shall we say, less gun-friendly states.

Howard

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DaveH

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That is one of the strange things about this whole incident. As the VCDL post said,

__________________
I am neither a lawyer, nor I do not play one on television or on the Internet. I hope no one assumes that I am giving legal advice.

Veni, Vidi, Velcro