Church carry in La - Page 2

TonyB · August 19th, 2008, 06:28 PM

Since you are the "sheppard"of this particular flock that God has intrusted to you,legalities aside,I think it is your duty to carry to protect them.I know the Bible says to obey the law of the land,but immoral laws(which I think most laws that make us sitting ducks are)are an exception.just one Christian's opinion.
which bring up the question
WWJC(what would Jesus carry?)

Gideon · August 19th, 2008, 07:24 PM

Biblically, a church is an assembly of people. The Pastor is the biblically estabished authority. In Missouri it says you have to have permission of the church leadership. Not sure there. If the law says the owner then that's Jesus but the congregation can vote to allow it. And that can be a VERY awkward thing and could even be a stumblingblock in which case we would need to forego our rights.

Research the law carefully yourself and if you feel you need something more than the Pastor's authority then talk to a few men to get their thoughts. They've been there and know the congregation and how receptive they might be. Of course if you take this route and their not receptive, or the congregation then you really have no choice.

The alternative is to wait a bit and get to know your people and give them a chance to get to know you.

Being choosen by a people to be a Pastor can not biblically be compard to being hired to do anything in a church and this has nothing to do with being a non-profit as a church is a church irregardless of non-profit status. In fact, under federal law any church is a non-profit whether they've filed or not, period.

More importantly, you might need to consider what the church constitution says. A church consitution is nothing more than a church putting in writing how they themselves have decided to run their affairs. The Bible is the final authority but the consitution is used when the Church is forced to deal with carnal christians because courts don't recognize the Bible but will recognize a consitution. What does the current constitution say about how decisions are reached?

If you must get the owner's permission then somehow you need the permission of the congregation. Another approach would be to bring it up after a while as a discussion point "after" a regular business meeting. Bring it up as a discussion on Church Security. Explain how we've all see alarming trends of attacks in church and that you think the church should consider allowing licensed carriers to carry with the advance permission of the Pastor. You don't need to say anything about yourself. Then suggest that it's better if it's not known who does carry but that you would know. You can tell the folks that this is just another matter of security for protecting the congregation (one of your jobs) just as you have procedures in how you run your nursury to protect the babies and to protect the church from liability.

If you take this discussion route and no one objects, recommend that the church make a simple vote to extend this authority to the Pastor, document it in the church meeting minutes and you're done. If the reaction is negative, table the idea and wait 6 months to a year.

you should also address the topic of security with the ushers. In a small rural congregation just having one always sit at the very furthest back of the church house is a good idea and to instruct them on how to handle situations when YOU deem it necessary to remove someone from the services. Hopefully you never have to but if you ever do, that's not the time to discuss with the men how.

Anyway, sorry for the long post; I hope this helps a little.

preachertim · August 19th, 2008, 07:59 PM

I talked to my local State Rep here in La named Steve Little I think and he is going to put in the question to the AG. This is wierd but only an elected official can ask the AG for a statement of opinion as far as laws Go. They will not give you legal advice which I completely understand but he is going to get some clarification for me. I was told by the La. State police and someone from the AG s office that it is what it says.That leaves me in a position of being vulnerable and I am not comfortable with that . Will keep you posted over the next few days and what the response is. by the way this state Rep was very helpful, personal and most of all positive about Gun Rights and CCW.
Thanks

preachertim · August 19th, 2008, 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by havegunjoe

Does it prohibit in church altogether, or allow with permission of someone in charge of the church? Typically these laws are written to give the church the choice as States don't want to dictate how they go about their busniess so I would be surprised if it is not so. Anyway the person in charge would be you IMHO.

it says no Carry in church.

Bob The Great · August 19th, 2008, 08:33 PM

Yes, church carry is flat-out against the law, and this is one of my biggest disappointments with LA's gun laws. I came from TX, where carrying in church is perfectly OK, as long as it's not marked with a 30.06 sign.

Honestly, it's kept me from being as active in my church as I'd like to be. Sad, but it's true.

Hopefully, we can get that changed, along with a couple of the other legal idiosynchracies around here.

packin · August 19th, 2008, 10:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob The Great

Yes, church carry is flat-out against the law, and this is one of my biggest disappointments with LA's gun laws. I came from TX, where carrying in church is perfectly OK, as long as it's not marked with a 30.06 sign.

Honestly, it's kept me from being as active in my church as I'd like to be. Sad, but it's true.

Hopefully, we can get that changed, along with a couple of the other legal idiosynchracies around here.

I'll second the desire to get church carry removed from the prohibited list and I wish Louisiana would require the businesses to post a designated type of signage like Texas requires with the 30.06 as far as notice.

Charliee · August 20th, 2008, 09:07 AM

Welcome to Louisiana. It is my understanding that under the laws of this state, carry in a church or place of worship is prohibited by law unless you are a leo. That being said there is much concern these days over active shooters in churches and I presonally feel better knowing that someone outthere might be carrying in church to protect the members. Just stay well concealed.

PM · August 20th, 2008, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by preachertim

Next No one owns our church it is autonimous.

Then the body as a whole (aka the congregation) owns the property. When I pastored Baptist churches the property tax papers (No we did not pay taxes but they still sent the paper work --- Kansas?) the line that would have the owners name was First Baptist church of XXX Inc.; the legal name of the church. So the church is owned by the Body of Trustees or Board of Directors. Tim IM me your denomination I almost would bet something depending on the law of the state of LA.

me · August 20th, 2008, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gideon

What does the current constitution say about how decisions are reached?

This is one of 2 questions that needs to be asked.

The second question I see that would need to be asked is who does the constitution/ by-laws list as the person in care of the building. Some Churches this might be the church board (like the one I have been called to) others it is the Pastor/ Sr. Pastor and others it is the Congregation.

Guess you would need to find these things out.

PHILBEE · August 20th, 2008, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JerryM

Although no one individual owns the property, the congregation as a whole does unless a denomination does. For example in nearly all Southern Baptist churches, the SBC owns the property no matter that the congregation paid for it. The same is true of some Presbyterian churches.
Assuming the local church congregation owns the church, the church or those elected to represent the church would seem to have the authority.
It will be interesting to learn what the state AG has to say.

Where did you get the idea that the SBC owned the property of a Southern Baptist Church? I've been a Southern Baptist my entire life (58 years) and none of the churches I've belonged to were owned by anyone but the congregation.

August 19th, 2008, 06:28 PM	#11
TonyB Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Schodack NY Posts: 256	Since you are the "sheppard"of this particular flock that God has intrusted to you,legalities aside,I think it is your duty to carry to protect them.I know the Bible says to obey the law of the land,but immoral laws(which I think most laws that make us sitting ducks are)are an exception.just one Christian's opinion. which bring up the question WWJC(what would Jesus carry?) __________________ "Just because I'm paranoid,doesn't mean they're NOT after me...."

August 19th, 2008, 07:24 PM	#12
Gideon Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Missouri Posts: 777	Biblically, a church is an assembly of people. The Pastor is the biblically estabished authority. In Missouri it says you have to have permission of the church leadership. Not sure there. If the law says the owner then that's Jesus but the congregation can vote to allow it. And that can be a VERY awkward thing and could even be a stumblingblock in which case we would need to forego our rights. Research the law carefully yourself and if you feel you need something more than the Pastor's authority then talk to a few men to get their thoughts. They've been there and know the congregation and how receptive they might be. Of course if you take this route and their not receptive, or the congregation then you really have no choice. The alternative is to wait a bit and get to know your people and give them a chance to get to know you. Being choosen by a people to be a Pastor can not biblically be compard to being hired to do anything in a church and this has nothing to do with being a non-profit as a church is a church irregardless of non-profit status. In fact, under federal law any church is a non-profit whether they've filed or not, period. More importantly, you might need to consider what the church constitution says. A church consitution is nothing more than a church putting in writing how they themselves have decided to run their affairs. The Bible is the final authority but the consitution is used when the Church is forced to deal with carnal christians because courts don't recognize the Bible but will recognize a consitution. What does the current constitution say about how decisions are reached? If you must get the owner's permission then somehow you need the permission of the congregation. Another approach would be to bring it up after a while as a discussion point "after" a regular business meeting. Bring it up as a discussion on Church Security. Explain how we've all see alarming trends of attacks in church and that you think the church should consider allowing licensed carriers to carry with the advance permission of the Pastor. You don't need to say anything about yourself. Then suggest that it's better if it's not known who does carry but that you would know. You can tell the folks that this is just another matter of security for protecting the congregation (one of your jobs) just as you have procedures in how you run your nursury to protect the babies and to protect the church from liability. If you take this discussion route and no one objects, recommend that the church make a simple vote to extend this authority to the Pastor, document it in the church meeting minutes and you're done. If the reaction is negative, table the idea and wait 6 months to a year. you should also address the topic of security with the ushers. In a small rural congregation just having one always sit at the very furthest back of the church house is a good idea and to instruct them on how to handle situations when YOU deem it necessary to remove someone from the services. Hopefully you never have to but if you ever do, that's not the time to discuss with the men how. Anyway, sorry for the long post; I hope this helps a little. __________________ God Bless Gideon Jer 33:3

August 19th, 2008, 08:33 PM	#15
Bob The Great Distinguished Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Slidell, LA Posts: 1,451	Yes, church carry is flat-out against the law, and this is one of my biggest disappointments with LA's gun laws. I came from TX, where carrying in church is perfectly OK, as long as it's not marked with a 30.06 sign. Honestly, it's kept me from being as active in my church as I'd like to be. Sad, but it's true. Hopefully, we can get that changed, along with a couple of the other legal idiosynchracies around here. __________________ "A well-educated electorate, being necessary to the continuance of a free state, the right of the people to keep and read books shall not be infringed." Is this hard to understand? Then why does it get unintelligible to some people when 5 little words are changed?

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

August 19th, 2008, 07:59 PM	#13
preachertim Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Louisiana Posts: 236	I talked to my local State Rep here in La named Steve Little I think and he is going to put in the question to the AG. This is wierd but only an elected official can ask the AG for a statement of opinion as far as laws Go. They will not give you legal advice which I completely understand but he is going to get some clarification for me. I was told by the La. State police and someone from the AG s office that it is what it says.That leaves me in a position of being vulnerable and I am not comfortable with that . Will keep you posted over the next few days and what the response is. by the way this state Rep was very helpful, personal and most of all positive about Gun Rights and CCW. Thanks

August 20th, 2008, 09:07 AM	#17
Charliee Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Louisiana Posts: 42	Welcome to Louisiana. It is my understanding that under the laws of this state, carry in a church or place of worship is prohibited by law unless you are a leo. That being said there is much concern these days over active shooters in churches and I presonally feel better knowing that someone outthere might be carrying in church to protect the members. Just stay well concealed.