Non-factory modifications and the law - Page 2

JerryM · August 27th, 2008, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BikerRN

It depends.

It depends on the modifications and if you can articulate why you had the modifications made. If they pass the "reasonable man" test, you should, I repeat, should be OK.

I've added better sights, rendered my carry Revolvers Double Action Only, and had an "Action Job" done all to faciliatate putting the bullets where I intend to put them, with accuracy.

Take it for what it's worth, I'm not a lawyer, nor did I stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night.

Biker

I am with Biker. I do what I desire to do with my guns and do not worry.

I have a responsibility to be as proficient as I can. Mods that increase my proficiency makes it much more likely that bystanders and innocents will not be inadvertently injured. That goes for handloads also if using them makes me a better shot, and my gun more reliable.

The guy that was found guilty that used a 10mm had an incompetent lawyer. The FBI did not discontinue using it because it was too dangerous, but because the recoil was more than some agents could handle.

I refuse to be ruled by "what ifs" unless I can determine that they make sense. I think most of them are gun writers trying to make themselves more expert than they are. I agree that some are good, but they also go over the top at times.

Best,
Jerry

Redneck Repairs · August 27th, 2008, 03:22 PM

Its a rough question which varies state to state . I am sure that in some states any mod to a pistol might aid a prosecuting attny in portraying you as a " killer in waiting " . However i will disagree here and say that nowadays we must apply the " common man " doctrine to mods . This simply means that if you mod a firearm you best be able to explain to a jury of " common men " how the mod made you and the firearm safer for society at large . You can think of it as i had a trigger job done not to make my pistol a more effecent killing weapon , rather to safeguard innocents from missed shots . The problem is that when you mod an action from " factory spec " you give an argument to hang a prosecution on . Hell one fella just went to prison for innocent mods to an oly ar 15 whereby it would slam fire if you set everything up just right . Actually i am not sure he modded the gun at all , but he was a natnl guard armorer so he might have , or should have changed the old oly so it was not as likely . Olofson IMHO is a manufactured felon . None the less he serves time today . Think mods thro carefully . Ask your self both is this mod court defensable under common man , and is it legal ? As an instance bolt on vertical fore grips are common for the AR 15s nowadays . So are " Tac rails " on pistols . Did you know if you take the fore grip off the ar and put it on your say ... glock you are now a felon ?? .

Mods are fine if they help and you can explain to a jury why you did it . Otherwise dont do it , you may not only be handing ammo out , but you may wind up in violation of some obscure state , federal , or local law which by its self makes you a bad person .

sass20485 · August 27th, 2008, 06:10 PM

Well, I would not go too far with making it a tricked out super gun with a hair trigger and all. Make it reliable and safe, but stay as close to factory specs as possible. We are gun people on this forum and understand modifications. Your average juror is NOT and won't be immune to all the crap and garbage the prosecution will throw at them. They might believe all that junk. I've been on a few juries and it is SCARY how some of these folks think and the hair brained "logic " they throw in the mix, in coming to a verdict.

LongRider · August 28th, 2008, 03:40 AM

Sorry about the long post it is huge even for me, I did cut is down some

The fact is that a persecutor will do everything they can to win a case. Every aspect of your life and gun ownership may come into play. The weaker the facts of his case, the more they will focus on trying to make you out a psycho killer clown. A attorney friend of mine said the below is not an unlikely tact for persecutor would take. Considering that he was the youngest attorney to have tried a capitol case in Washington and has tried more capitol cases in the Tri State Northwest (WA, Or, Id) than any other attorney I give his opinion some credence

Quote:

Ladies and gentleman of the jury we have proven that this individual is not you average gun owner. One who has a gun at home for self protection. This individual carried his gun with him EVERY DAY, every where he went, looking for his chance. On his person every day he carried an EXTREME DUTY .45 Caliber weapon produced by Springfield Armory a major weapons supplier for our military. His .45 caliber weapon is the caliber favored by military, the Navy Seals and Spec Ops military renowned for it deadliness. He practiced weekly spending thousands upon thousands of dollars fine tuning his skills to kill another human being. He spent many more thousands of dollars taking combat training courses intended for law enforcement and special ops military. These killer training courses cost hundreds with expenses even thousands of dollars EACH. These covert training camps are held in isolated parts of the country. Imagine the huge commitment of time and money, travel, securing lodging. Not to mention he often traveled across the country with a car load of weapons and ammunition. Typically they will shoot a thousand rounds or more, in one weekend. Who does this? Not your average citizen. Do you know anyone who has gone to one of these killer camps? Of course not. No, this fanatic is not your every day gun owner. He did not just go to a gun range and target practice. He combat trained, learning to shoot one handed. Learned and practiced point shooting while running moving advancing on his victim. Do any of us even know what point shooting is? Techniques reserved for specialized military and federal agents. He had his gun customized with military grade high tech fiber optic night sights and a military style laser sight. We have shown you the advertisement for the Deadly Federal HST 230 grain bullet. Designed for the exclusive use of law enforcement. Who knows where someone could get ammunition like this. Not a single gun store in this city carries it. Ammunition that is designed to RIP through his victim. Not like a regular bullet hole but made to RIP, TEAR and SHRED a quarter sized hole through human flesh. He even went so far as to have a specialized hand made custom holster made for deep concealment to assure his prey would not know he was armed until it was to late. As we have shown when he was not practicing killing he was reading books like Kill or Be Killed and participating in an online message board, dedicated to guns, the most deadly ammunition, how to shoot and venders who specialize in making custom combat weapons. No this is not your average gun owner but a man obsessed with committing murder. A man who equipped and trained himself to be a killer, for years waiting for his chance. When poor little johnny full of dreams for the long promising life before him. Whose broken heart grieving mother you heard testify was a kind gentle boy whom everyone loved fell through the window onto the defendants wife he did not have a prayer. How could he have known that a vicious killer like the murderous defendant lay in wait for him?

That is similar to the tact the persecutor took against Harold Fish, focusing in on the 10mm as evidence that Mr Fish had a desire to kill someone. Members of the jury said that the 10mm and hollow points were the deciding factor in convicting him. A competent lawyer would have been able to make the persecutor out as the clown for trying to make an issue of it. Harold Fish was hiker his primary concern was four legged predators not humans. A whole slew of hunters, campers, outdoors men are available to confirm that a 10 mm is arguably the minimum caliber that anyone would want to shoot a bear wolf or cougar with. They could have presented 50 to 500 caliber handguns commonly carried by guides and outdoors men for comparison. Along with many LEO who do carry 10 mm. Instead the defense attorney offered little or no rebuttal nor did they deal with the "Killer Hollow Point" myth which is one that the general public have come to believe because that is what the experts in the media keep calling them. Hollow point instead could be called safety bullets. That is the rational that LEO used when they first started using them. The claim was that they were designed to stop in the target and not go through and hit innocent by standers. That they do not ricochet like FMJ bullets do, again for the safety of the children of course. Additionally as we all know hollow points are the standard issue of virtually every PD in the nation. But Harold Fish's lawyer never argued any of that and let the persecutors image of Harold Fish as the killer clown in lambs clothing ride. Even though the police released Harold Fish initially having determined the shooting was justified based on Harold Fish's statement. Those statements were later used against him in trial.
The point of this lengthy post is DO NOT TALK TO THE POLICE and that every single aspect of our gun ownership as well as every other aspect of our lives can be made an issue during a murder trial. If you go to church regularly you will be a religious fanatic. If you do not go to church you will be a heathen.

Rather than worry how unscrupulous bureaucrats will interpret the make or caliber of gun we choose, the ammo we use or our reasonable performance modifications to our HD and carry weapons. I suggest spending the time finding the very best criminal lawyer you can. One who can destroy the the absurd type of arguments used against Harold Fish effortlessly. One who has tried murder cases and wins. One who has the experts phone number on his rolodex. A trial attorney who knows juries not a deal maker (most are deal makers)/ Keep you gun modifications within what he defines as defensible limits i.e. I do not suggest carrying a suppressed race gun with holo sights and a two pound trigger as an EDC.

If we live in fear making all our life choices based on the possibility that an unethical persecutor will try to twist it to use against us than we have lost. Prisoners to our own fear.

MitchellCT · August 28th, 2008, 08:54 AM

The unethical prosecutor you speak of is the same guy you cheered on last week when he put the needle into the arm of some true scum.

Instead of unethical, you are better off calling him misguided, because unethical implies he doesn't believe that good people should come out ahead when dealing with bad ones, or that he is a bad one himself...

In the circumstance you are referring to, something has convinced him YOU are the bad person who did something that endangers the public, and therefore he has to protect the rest of us from YOU.

I know some prosecutors I'd describe as...well, I've been warned about my language, but lets say they aren't pleasant people to deal with.

They don't like criminals.

They think everyone is guilty and if people feel they aren't guilty, they can just go to trial and take their chances.

And They Don't Like To Loose.

Now, don't get me wrong, they aren't the type who would weep over a citizen killing a criminal in a lawful self defense incident.

They would probably say "Great. One less repeat customer" then walk the paperwork to the judge for him to sign and get you the gun back...

But.

But...

If you start running your mouth to the police and say something incriminating, or it appears you went outside of the bounds of use of force laws, they would feel an obligation to act consistent with what they feel is the obligation to the public inherent in the oath they took when they entered into the office of the prosecutor and the oath they took when they became members of the bar...,i.e., protect and serve the public by prosecuting what they believe to be criminal action on your part.

Would they manufacture evidence to get you convicted? Withhold exculpatory evidence?

No.

Would they use every trick in the book including rhetoric about your weapon to insure a conviction because in their opinion your actions went over the line, endangered the public and thus other people need to be protected from you?

Yes, they would.

Do unethical prosecutors exist, yes. See: Nifong.

Is that common? No.

Stop with the cartoon character of the prosecutor.

It's no more valid than the image the Bradys paint of any of you.

elgriton · August 28th, 2008, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by V8 Thumper

Trigger jobs, aftermarket barrels, compensators, etc... 'smith work in other words. How does law percieve these modifications in the event that the weapon is used in self defense, assuming justificaiton?

Dead is Dead. If a suspect, especially a known felon, got shot while breaking the law and the shooter felt his life was in danger there is a slim chance the shooter is going to go to jail on a "type of gun" technicallity. That goes for gun modifications short of turning a legal gun into a bazzooka. If the shooter feared for their lives and the gun went BANG on que, then whats the problem? I can see a lawyer trying to make legal hay out of this on civil grounds but if the shooting was fully justified it probably ain't going nowhere.

LongRider · September 1st, 2008, 05:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MitchellCT

The unethical prosecutor you speak of is the same guy you

Who called persecutors unethical? How is your post relevant to the thread? I read the thread could not find any reference to unethical persecutors. Though the consensus seems to be that persecutors will do what it takes to win and further their personal political ambitions. I'd have to concur with that based on my experiences. I believe the focus had been on the fact that it is in each of our best interest to be prepared to face a persecutor that will come after us full bore if we are ever involved in a shooting. To do anything less is irresponsible IMO and could very well result with a rope being put around our neck. Ask Harold Fish. Now if you choose to make decisions based upon the belief that the persecutor filing murder charges against you will be your friend, a model of honor and integrity the bastion of liberty and justice you are of course free to believe that. But don't suggest that others bet their life on that misconception

My wife used to believe that. Until she actually had to deal with one, the day after I dropped a 700 pound motorcycle on me and that shoved me across the street face first into a guard rail at 40mph. She thought it was OK to talk to the persecutor, after all he was the good guy. To explain to him why four hours after the accident, when the officer showed up to have a blood test taken. A blood test that was taken while I was laying on a gurney awaiting surgery a catheter up my johnson, IV's in both arms (one of them pumping morphine and valium into me), tubes shoved up my nose and down my throat. They found pain killers in my system. Duhh ya think? She knows better now after eighteen months and eighteen grand fighting a DUI charge.

That persecutor used every trick in the book including jeopardizing my wife's job to make me cop a plea. He only dropped the charges after the persecutor realized who my trial lawyer and witness were. He knew that we would publicly rip him to shreds in court. Exposing him for the clown he is the jury would be rolling on the floor laughing hard at his stupidity he would not be able to get elected to sweep floors of the court house much less a prosecutor.

Point of this tale of whoa is that if a persecutor would go to these extremes for a DUI Imagine what one will do to get a murder conviction which may make or break his political aspirations. I am not saying to let fear of the persecutor select the caliber of gun, ammo you carry or what mods you do. In my opinion select the caliber best suited to your needs, with the most effective ammo that you can find modified to whatever works best for you. Than be prepared to explain your reasoning to twelve jurors with an attorney at your side who you know is more than capable of ripping the persecutor a new one if he should try to make any of that an issue. Because no matter what you or anyone says when that persecutor is sitting across the table from you he is your enemy intent on doing everything possible to do you the maximum harm he possibly can. Truth and justice have nothing to do with it. Winning is all that matters. You can bet you life on that.

Hotbrass · September 1st, 2008, 02:20 PM

The only mod to my primary carry piece is night sights.

Bark'n · September 1st, 2008, 03:30 PM

BikerRN has a very good post regarding this.

I will add that one thing Ayoob has always argued against was having any "factory designed safety devices" disabled.

For example, a magazine disconnect. If you want a firearm that will allow you to fire a chambered round without the magazine in place, then buy a gun that doesn't have that feature. There are plenty of guns out there without magazine disconnects.

Anytime you disable a factory designed "safety feature," you do open yourself up to added liability.

You may be able to successfully defeat the prosecutors attack on any given modification you make, but it will cost you a lot more money to do so and will probably entail hiring additional expert witnesses to support your modification. And you never know if a jury is going to accept your "expert witness." So why go down that road if you don't have to.

Like BikerRN stated, modifications done by competent gunsmiths designed to make your gun more safe, as in turning a revolver into a DAO. Or other modifications designed to make you a more accurate shooter, thus making you a safer shooter as in having an "action job" performed, should be much easier to defend in court and pass the "reasonable man" standard.

rljohns · September 1st, 2008, 04:41 PM

The one strange thing about the Fish case is that the DA initially said the case was SD and didn't want to prosecute until some of the "town folk" pressed for a trail because the testified that this Bad Guy was harmless and not a threat to anyone and the teacher was looking to kill someone.

August 27th, 2008, 06:10 PM	#13
sass20485 Distinguished Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Central FL Posts: 1,587	Well, I would not go too far with making it a tricked out super gun with a hair trigger and all. Make it reliable and safe, but stay as close to factory specs as possible. We are gun people on this forum and understand modifications. Your average juror is NOT and won't be immune to all the crap and garbage the prosecution will throw at them. They might believe all that junk. I've been on a few juries and it is SCARY how some of these folks think and the hair brained "logic " they throw in the mix, in coming to a verdict. Last edited by sass20485; August 27th, 2008 at 08:57 PM.

September 1st, 2008, 02:20 PM	#18
Hotbrass Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Far Far away Posts: 174	The only mod to my primary carry piece is night sights. __________________ Keep your powder dry

September 1st, 2008, 03:30 PM	#19
Bark'n VIP Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: West Central Missouri Posts: 2,619	BikerRN has a very good post regarding this. I will add that one thing Ayoob has always argued against was having any "factory designed safety devices" disabled. For example, a magazine disconnect. If you want a firearm that will allow you to fire a chambered round without the magazine in place, then buy a gun that doesn't have that feature. There are plenty of guns out there without magazine disconnects. Anytime you disable a factory designed "safety feature," you do open yourself up to added liability. You may be able to successfully defeat the prosecutors attack on any given modification you make, but it will cost you a lot more money to do so and will probably entail hiring additional expert witnesses to support your modification. And you never know if a jury is going to accept your "expert witness." So why go down that road if you don't have to. Like BikerRN stated, modifications done by competent gunsmiths designed to make your gun more safe, as in turning a revolver into a DAO. Or other modifications designed to make you a more accurate shooter, thus making you a safer shooter as in having an "action job" performed, should be much easier to defend in court and pass the "reasonable man" standard. __________________ -Bark'n Semper Fi "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, will prey on those of us who without one, would surely perish."

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August 27th, 2008, 03:22 PM	#12
Redneck Repairs VIP Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Colorado Posts: 5,141	Its a rough question which varies state to state . I am sure that in some states any mod to a pistol might aid a prosecuting attny in portraying you as a " killer in waiting " . However i will disagree here and say that nowadays we must apply the " common man " doctrine to mods . This simply means that if you mod a firearm you best be able to explain to a jury of " common men " how the mod made you and the firearm safer for society at large . You can think of it as i had a trigger job done not to make my pistol a more effecent killing weapon , rather to safeguard innocents from missed shots . The problem is that when you mod an action from " factory spec " you give an argument to hang a prosecution on . Hell one fella just went to prison for innocent mods to an oly ar 15 whereby it would slam fire if you set everything up just right . Actually i am not sure he modded the gun at all , but he was a natnl guard armorer so he might have , or should have changed the old oly so it was not as likely . Olofson IMHO is a manufactured felon . None the less he serves time today . Think mods thro carefully . Ask your self both is this mod court defensable under common man , and is it legal ? As an instance bolt on vertical fore grips are common for the AR 15s nowadays . So are " Tac rails " on pistols . Did you know if you take the fore grip off the ar and put it on your say ... glock you are now a felon ?? . Mods are fine if they help and you can explain to a jury why you did it . Otherwise dont do it , you may not only be handing ammo out , but you may wind up in violation of some obscure state , federal , or local law which by its self makes you a bad person .

August 28th, 2008, 08:54 AM	#15
MitchellCT Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Connecticut Posts: 744	The unethical prosecutor you speak of is the same guy you cheered on last week when he put the needle into the arm of some true scum. Instead of unethical, you are better off calling him misguided, because unethical implies he doesn't believe that good people should come out ahead when dealing with bad ones, or that he is a bad one himself... In the circumstance you are referring to, something has convinced him YOU are the bad person who did something that endangers the public, and therefore he has to protect the rest of us from YOU. I know some prosecutors I'd describe as...well, I've been warned about my language, but lets say they aren't pleasant people to deal with. They don't like criminals. They think everyone is guilty and if people feel they aren't guilty, they can just go to trial and take their chances. And They Don't Like To Loose. Now, don't get me wrong, they aren't the type who would weep over a citizen killing a criminal in a lawful self defense incident. They would probably say "Great. One less repeat customer" then walk the paperwork to the judge for him to sign and get you the gun back... But. But... If you start running your mouth to the police and say something incriminating, or it appears you went outside of the bounds of use of force laws, they would feel an obligation to act consistent with what they feel is the obligation to the public inherent in the oath they took when they entered into the office of the prosecutor and the oath they took when they became members of the bar...,i.e., protect and serve the public by prosecuting what they believe to be criminal action on your part. Would they manufacture evidence to get you convicted? Withhold exculpatory evidence? No. Would they use every trick in the book including rhetoric about your weapon to insure a conviction because in their opinion your actions went over the line, endangered the public and thus other people need to be protected from you? Yes, they would. Do unethical prosecutors exist, yes. See: Nifong. Is that common? No. Stop with the cartoon character of the prosecutor. It's no more valid than the image the Bradys paint of any of you.

September 1st, 2008, 04:41 PM	#20
rljohns Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Colorado Posts: 529	The one strange thing about the Fish case is that the DA initially said the case was SD and didn't want to prosecute until some of the "town folk" pressed for a trail because the testified that this Bad Guy was harmless and not a threat to anyone and the teacher was looking to kill someone.