concealed carry at work? - Page 3

wpk · September 3rd, 2008, 10:34 PM

I don't know how your protocols are, but we get LE response with us automatically whenever a call sounds like any kind of violence might be present. I'll pull my rig around the corner and wait for them if they haven't shown up yet on a call where it sounds like a weapon may be present. I'm not risking my safety or the safety of my guys for some scumbag.

That said, I'm not sure about EMTs carrying. We're still seen by most as the good guys, even by those who view the police as enemies. We go out of the way to differentiate ourselves from the police and I believe that is part of the reason the public trusts us more (generally). I'm not sure how much of that trust we may lose if the public knew we were carrying deadly weapons. I am definitely thinking of carrying some pepper spray on duty though, we do get into some hairy situations at times.

me · September 3rd, 2008, 11:45 PM

I agree with the discussion of differentiating our selves from the PD. I just left a Ghetto EMS service where I was full time to accept my full time youth ministry job.

I did not carry my firearm on duty for multiple reasons.

Reason 1: Entry into restricted places and no way to secure the firearm. This was a 911 service where I had responsibility to respond into schools as well as government buildings and a VA hospital.

Reason 2: WE had the trust of the public and did all we could to differentiate from the PD. I have heard the comment "That only them ambulance folk leave em be they ok." We looked different, we wore lime green coats not just for the traffic but cause the cops wore black. Some in my service wore badges, I REFUSED because it looked like a cop. Many of us wore strictly EMS pants and T-shirts or EMS pants and Polo shirts. Our cops were not liked, we were loved.

I don't see it as a good Idea with the positions you will put yourself in working EMS; the physical positions with bending and moving (I broke cell phones in my pocket); as well as (my feeling) EMS crews who feel they have "something to defend them self with" will be more willing to put themselves in places before the PD have cleared it.

I have had PD on scene with a pt fall down the stairs and had to leave with a trauma pt only half boarded because the scene got hostile. When you are with a pt your mind needs to be focused on the PT not your gun.

BOOM-STICK Holsters · September 4th, 2008, 12:13 AM

It's unfortunate that most EMS services don't do more to protect the well being of their employees, especially when the rate of assaults against EMS providers is continually rising.

Even if you go ahead and ask about the possibility of carrying at work, you will most likely be given several reasons why that's not feasible (hospital policies, civil liability, etc.).

I recommend that you at least have your boss contact Kip Teitsort at DT4EMS to talk about the liability of not having some sort of defensive training for his employees, though.

optikal · September 5th, 2008, 02:13 AM

thank yall, there are some very good ideas and some points of view i havent thought of. i always have pd clear any potentially dangerous scene, but i have been on many that went south very quickly. i was always taught if your scene becomes unsafe leave. i just want to make sure i CAN leave, i dont ever want to have to use a gun for the purpose of taking a life, but if i have to choose me or someone else, i want to know i did everything possible for my daughter to have her daddy come home safe and not in a bag.

optikal · September 5th, 2008, 02:13 AM

as far as lcking up, we have lock boxes in every truck for med storage with special keys.

me · September 5th, 2008, 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by optikal

as far as lcking up, we have lock boxes in every truck for med storage with special keys.

If you are not going to inform your partner then this is gonna be hard to pull off. I know I always replaced meds even though I was the Basic on the truck. If meds were used I replaced because the medic was giving the report and we always had to run quick turn around.

Also I can not remember if you mentioned this, I was in the market for one when I got out of full time EMs but a Bulletproof vest would be nice.

Thanis · September 5th, 2008, 09:08 PM

My father is a veteran, and 30+ year fire fighter, and retired fire chief. Does not make me an expert.

At one point in his career he carried (Detroit riots). No one forced my father to carry. This is the only time he carried. His job was to put out fires and hose down crowds (marshal law). My father soon left Detriot.

Retired now, but as the head of his department (not Detroit), he made it clear that it was the job of LE to have firearms and not Fire Fighters. He felt strongly about this for three reasons.

1) He did not want the powers that be to start using fire fighters and paramedics as LE. He felt the first wrong step would be to allow FD to carry. He felt each (LE & FD) had a common responsibility, the common good, but different roles to play, and were trained differently for a reason. As a practical (and insurance related) argument he once pointed out that LE was trained to use firearm and eat donuts and fire fighters were trained to put out fires (he said this in front of the mayor and the police chief). The point, every unit can not be prepared for every role. Not every responder can have the same mindset.

2) The public needed to know, for the safety of the fire fighters, paramedics, and those being attended to, that the FD is there, in an emergency, to protect lives and not to enforce laws (in general, naturally ther are laws the FD enforces, but we are talking about firearm issues).

3) That in the course of a fire fighters / paramedics career they very well could be a SD situation where a firearm might be needed. However there were many risks with the job counter to self-preservation, and if you wanted to be in his department, not carrying was one of them.

I think the only exception he made was for inspectors. Funding for the fire department always passed the public vote when my father was chief. One time someone was trying to use my father's view's for his department to counter another city's fire chief's decesion. He made it clear this was not the right choice for every fire department, but it was in his.

I'm not quoting my father, but it comes close.

Once you make a non-police first responder a LE (or the public thinks they are armed), you make them a greater target if armed, you lose funding, and you hinder fire fighters / paramedics from doing their job. Not the only issues, may not work for every city, county, or state. But important points to be addressed.

September 3rd, 2008, 11:45 PM	#22
me Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: PA Posts: 894	I agree with the discussion of differentiating our selves from the PD. I just left a Ghetto EMS service where I was full time to accept my full time youth ministry job. I did not carry my firearm on duty for multiple reasons. Reason 1: Entry into restricted places and no way to secure the firearm. This was a 911 service where I had responsibility to respond into schools as well as government buildings and a VA hospital. Reason 2: WE had the trust of the public and did all we could to differentiate from the PD. I have heard the comment "That only them ambulance folk leave em be they ok." We looked different, we wore lime green coats not just for the traffic but cause the cops wore black. Some in my service wore badges, I REFUSED because it looked like a cop. Many of us wore strictly EMS pants and T-shirts or EMS pants and Polo shirts. Our cops were not liked, we were loved. I don't see it as a good Idea with the positions you will put yourself in working EMS; the physical positions with bending and moving (I broke cell phones in my pocket); as well as (my feeling) EMS crews who feel they have "something to defend them self with" will be more willing to put themselves in places before the PD have cleared it. I have had PD on scene with a pt fall down the stairs and had to leave with a trauma pt only half boarded because the scene got hostile. When you are with a pt your mind needs to be focused on the PT not your gun. __________________ Mark "The world is filled with violence. Because criminals carry guns, we decent law-abiding citizens should also have guns. Otherwise they will win and the decent people will lose." -James Earl Jones

September 4th, 2008, 12:13 AM	#23
BOOM-STICK Holsters Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Southern Missouri Posts: 534	It's unfortunate that most EMS services don't do more to protect the well being of their employees, especially when the rate of assaults against EMS providers is continually rising. Even if you go ahead and ask about the possibility of carrying at work, you will most likely be given several reasons why that's not feasible (hospital policies, civil liability, etc.). I recommend that you at least have your boss contact Kip Teitsort at DT4EMS to talk about the liability of not having some sort of defensive training for his employees, though. __________________ Jeff Wright BOOM-STICK Holsters West Plains, Mo _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice Doggy' until you can find a big enough rock.

September 5th, 2008, 02:13 AM	#24
optikal Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Haughton, Louisiana Posts: 84	thank yall, there are some very good ideas and some points of view i havent thought of. i always have pd clear any potentially dangerous scene, but i have been on many that went south very quickly. i was always taught if your scene becomes unsafe leave. i just want to make sure i CAN leave, i dont ever want to have to use a gun for the purpose of taking a life, but if i have to choose me or someone else, i want to know i did everything possible for my daughter to have her daddy come home safe and not in a bag. __________________ "If guns cause crime, all of mine are defective." Ted Nugent

September 5th, 2008, 02:13 AM	#25
optikal Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Haughton, Louisiana Posts: 84	as far as lcking up, we have lock boxes in every truck for med storage with special keys. __________________ "If guns cause crime, all of mine are defective." Ted Nugent

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September 3rd, 2008, 10:34 PM	#21
wpk Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Ohio Posts: 173	I don't know how your protocols are, but we get LE response with us automatically whenever a call sounds like any kind of violence might be present. I'll pull my rig around the corner and wait for them if they haven't shown up yet on a call where it sounds like a weapon may be present. I'm not risking my safety or the safety of my guys for some scumbag. That said, I'm not sure about EMTs carrying. We're still seen by most as the good guys, even by those who view the police as enemies. We go out of the way to differentiate ourselves from the police and I believe that is part of the reason the public trusts us more (generally). I'm not sure how much of that trust we may lose if the public knew we were carrying deadly weapons. I am definitely thinking of carrying some pepper spray on duty though, we do get into some hairy situations at times.

September 5th, 2008, 09:08 PM	#27
Thanis Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: MI Posts: 517	My father is a veteran, and 30+ year fire fighter, and retired fire chief. Does not make me an expert. At one point in his career he carried (Detroit riots). No one forced my father to carry. This is the only time he carried. His job was to put out fires and hose down crowds (marshal law). My father soon left Detriot. Retired now, but as the head of his department (not Detroit), he made it clear that it was the job of LE to have firearms and not Fire Fighters. He felt strongly about this for three reasons. 1) He did not want the powers that be to start using fire fighters and paramedics as LE. He felt the first wrong step would be to allow FD to carry. He felt each (LE & FD) had a common responsibility, the common good, but different roles to play, and were trained differently for a reason. As a practical (and insurance related) argument he once pointed out that LE was trained to use firearm and eat donuts and fire fighters were trained to put out fires (he said this in front of the mayor and the police chief). The point, every unit can not be prepared for every role. Not every responder can have the same mindset. 2) The public needed to know, for the safety of the fire fighters, paramedics, and those being attended to, that the FD is there, in an emergency, to protect lives and not to enforce laws (in general, naturally ther are laws the FD enforces, but we are talking about firearm issues). 3) That in the course of a fire fighters / paramedics career they very well could be a SD situation where a firearm might be needed. However there were many risks with the job counter to self-preservation, and if you wanted to be in his department, not carrying was one of them. I think the only exception he made was for inspectors. Funding for the fire department always passed the public vote when my father was chief. One time someone was trying to use my father's view's for his department to counter another city's fire chief's decesion. He made it clear this was not the right choice for every fire department, but it was in his. I'm not quoting my father, but it comes close. Once you make a non-police first responder a LE (or the public thinks they are armed), you make them a greater target if armed, you lose funding, and you hinder fire fighters / paramedics from doing their job. Not the only issues, may not work for every city, county, or state. But important points to be addressed.