If we are hit - Page 2

Betty · December 19th, 2005, 01:59 PM

I've had in-depth discussions with two men who have "been there and done that." One was a combat veteran and the other a "reformed" ex-con, both scarred from various battles and have killed in self-defense (not sure about the ex-con, but I don't really want to know).

I'm good friends with the vet, and watching his face go from the gentle man I know to a hard stare when he talks about "if it should happen again" is rather chilling. War-face is scary.

The ex-con shielded himself with a nasty attitude that screamed "stay away." It was almost a show. Like angry dogs kept in pens, they need to bare their teeth often to assure they don't get eaten up by the others.

With both of these men, there was no doubt in my mind that they would go straight into battlemode and deal with the problem effectively.

I've never had anything life-threatening happen to me involving weapons. The only life-threatening events have been auto related. I was almost in a head-on collision and avoided it well, and the shakes didn't kick in until miles down the road when I started focusing on the crazy person who could've killed me.

It's been a long time since I've been in a fist-fight, and I really can't count those as "experience", but I do distinctly remember fighting back with everything I had, even when my glasses were punched off. I did not want to go down. I've had the wind punched out of me in the stomach. I was buckled over and helpless on the ground for quite a while. That's a feeling I won't ever forget and will do my best to never end up there again.

Having no actual combat experience, I can only hope that my training, constant discussion over "what would you do" scenarios, and my will to survive will take over.

BlueLion · December 19th, 2005, 05:10 PM

Most military veterans and current service people don't realize how valuable Boot Camp was and is because guarantee if you are hit during fist fight or if you take a round, you will revert to training and it will be amazing how much stuff you recall when needed. It's almost like something just clicks on up there. I am a nice guy but I am aware that this lies deep inside due to my expierences. Well, anyway, no one really, really, knows your reaction, but military training does help.

rocky · December 19th, 2005, 07:14 PM

yes, training does really help. I Have LE training , and was assaulted 1 evening in a parking lot. Came up ready to do battle without even considering it. Training gets ya to react, instead of having to think it thru first.

KenpoTex · December 20th, 2005, 04:20 AM

Interesting discussion, I guess you really can't know how you will react until it happens but as some of you have said, I think mindset and training are critical.

This is an area where I think empty-hand training can help. Not in the sense that you're going to get shot and then go "Kung-fu" on the guy

. But the mindset development that's possible. What I mean is that if you are accustomed to high intensity training (boxing, MMA, grappling, etc.), you are used to getting hit or getting "hurt" and being able to brush it off and press on. Eventually you develop the mentality that "If I get hit, it may hurt but it's not going to stop me."
Obviously you don't have to study empty-hand fighting to develop this type of outlook but I think it definately helps to have experienced a small dose of the pain and adreneline you may encounter in a real SD situation. (of course, I believe that empty-hand training is an essential part of the SD toolbox anyway)

grnzbra · December 20th, 2005, 12:13 PM

In his book on interactive gunfighting (training with airsoft guns) Gabe Suarez suggests that training partners, when taking turns playing bad guy/good guy, have the good guy keep fighting no matter how many times he's hit, while the bad guy eventually goes down after receiving some predetermined number/placement of hits. This was to train not to ever give up, but guard against, "I gotcha", "No you didn't", "Yes I did" etc.

Free American · December 20th, 2005, 03:24 PM

In my younger days of scrapping and sprts I have had several fairly "serious" injuries. Broken bones and torn ligaments. I did not notice the pain immediately and the situation was not life threatening. Based on that I believe (but not tempted to find out for sure) that I am capable of carrying on until completely incapacitated. I stick with that belief in the event that time comes and it turns out that what really matters is what you believe you are capable of. (power of positive thinking and all that)

rachilders · December 20th, 2005, 04:53 PM

An interesting discussion. I've been shot, shot at and survived numerous life threatening situations over the years, but never at the same time! I was shot at in the military and as a teen (a neighbor thought I was a burglar once and fired at me with a shotgun... he missed). I was accidentally shot in the leg by a cousin who was cleaning a rife that was "unloaded" when I was 12. It was in the meaty part of my leg, on the inner thigh a few inches above the knee. BTW, it HURT! I can't remember the times I was a heartbeat away from seeing the white light at the end of the tunnel while flying for 20 years with the navy and I won't even include the accidents I've been in (broke my neck in the last one back in '94, that's why I retired from the navy) and the just plain dumb things I've done. I sometimes surprise myself I've lived as long as I have!

What I've learned about myself is I don't panic. Maybe it's the navy training or just having "been there and done that" more times than I can count anymore. Still, the question I try to remind myself of is this... what about those things I haven't experienced? I've never been robbed at gunpoint or caught in the middle of a gunfight. I suppose I’ll keep my head, but until it happens, I'll never know for sure. I DO know getting shot hurts and that if fired on, I will fire back. Beyond that, I can only guess.

cmidkiff · December 20th, 2005, 05:14 PM

I'm in the 'don't know until you're there' camp. Truthfully, I hope to never find out. I managed to crack my ribs from collarbone to sternum while riding a dirtbike when I was young, in the middle of nowhere, by myself. Saying 'it hurt' really doesn't do it justice. I made it home, but I'm not entirely sure how. That's what counts, really, just make it home.

Tom357 · December 20th, 2005, 07:32 PM

In my experience (not being shot), I felt the pressure of the blows I took, but did not feel the pain until after it was over. Being hit did not prevent me from staying focused on defending myself. When I broke my leg, this fall, I was in a situation where I could not stop what I was doing. I knew instantly that the leg was broken and that I could put no weight on it, but I felt no pain. I was able to hand off and solve the situation, and did not start to hurt until I was enroute to the hospital. This has made me imagine that if I were hit, it would not prevent me from defending myself unless it were a critical hit, that I would not lose focus on the problem at hand. I could be wrong, of course - shock can be tricksy - but I imagine, at least, that I would feel the pressure of the hit and be able to continue if I was able to continue at all, and wait to hurt until later.

KevinInstructor · December 20th, 2005, 08:30 PM

I have not been hit from a bullet but have been badly cut and beaten at different times. The two times I was cut it was not apparent how bad till much later, in one situation it was not till several days later that my tendon onto of my thumb was cut in two. Even the hospital doctor missed it.

Can you prepare for this? Yes and no, it depends on your mind set not your training in and of itself. Will it work for everyone? No, at least in my mind, if you do not have the resilience to continue the fight in the wake of overwhelming odds or simply this is not in your demeanor then it is not going to happen.

December 19th, 2005, 01:59 PM	#11
Betty Assistant Administrator Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Nashville Posts: 2,738	I've had in-depth discussions with two men who have "been there and done that." One was a combat veteran and the other a "reformed" ex-con, both scarred from various battles and have killed in self-defense (not sure about the ex-con, but I don't really want to know). I'm good friends with the vet, and watching his face go from the gentle man I know to a hard stare when he talks about "if it should happen again" is rather chilling. War-face is scary. The ex-con shielded himself with a nasty attitude that screamed "stay away." It was almost a show. Like angry dogs kept in pens, they need to bare their teeth often to assure they don't get eaten up by the others. With both of these men, there was no doubt in my mind that they would go straight into battlemode and deal with the problem effectively. I've never had anything life-threatening happen to me involving weapons. The only life-threatening events have been auto related. I was almost in a head-on collision and avoided it well, and the shakes didn't kick in until miles down the road when I started focusing on the crazy person who could've killed me. It's been a long time since I've been in a fist-fight, and I really can't count those as "experience", but I do distinctly remember fighting back with everything I had, even when my glasses were punched off. I did not want to go down. I've had the wind punched out of me in the stomach. I was buckled over and helpless on the ground for quite a while. That's a feeling I won't ever forget and will do my best to never end up there again. Having no actual combat experience, I can only hope that my training, constant discussion over "what would you do" scenarios, and my will to survive will take over. __________________ "Americans have the will to resist because you have weapons. If you don't have a gun, freedom of speech has no power." - Yoshimi Ishikawa Broodings, Blunders and Broadsides: The Betty Blog (Friends only - Email me through there to let me know who you are first!)

December 19th, 2005, 05:10 PM	#12
BlueLion Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: It Changes... Posts: 823	Most military veterans and current service people don't realize how valuable Boot Camp was and is because guarantee if you are hit during fist fight or if you take a round, you will revert to training and it will be amazing how much stuff you recall when needed. It's almost like something just clicks on up there. I am a nice guy but I am aware that this lies deep inside due to my expierences. Well, anyway, no one really, really, knows your reaction, but military training does help. __________________ Listen, Think and React.....Nuff Said.....

December 20th, 2005, 04:20 AM	#14
KenpoTex Distinguished Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Springfield, Missouri Posts: 1,755	Interesting discussion, I guess you really can't know how you will react until it happens but as some of you have said, I think mindset and training are critical. This is an area where I think empty-hand training can help. Not in the sense that you're going to get shot and then go "Kung-fu" on the guy . But the mindset development that's possible. What I mean is that if you are accustomed to high intensity training (boxing, MMA, grappling, etc.), you are used to getting hit or getting "hurt" and being able to brush it off and press on. Eventually you develop the mentality that "If I get hit, it may hurt but it's not going to stop me." Obviously you don't have to study empty-hand fighting to develop this type of outlook but I think it definately helps to have experienced a small dose of the pain and adreneline you may encounter in a real SD situation. (of course, I believe that empty-hand training is an essential part of the SD toolbox anyway) __________________ "There are no substitutes for violence of action and volume of fire..." ~Otto Skorzeny If you carry in Condition 3, you have two empty chambers. One in the weapon...the other between your ears. Matt K.

December 20th, 2005, 12:13 PM	#15
grnzbra Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: New Jersey Posts: 293	In his book on interactive gunfighting (training with airsoft guns) Gabe Suarez suggests that training partners, when taking turns playing bad guy/good guy, have the good guy keep fighting no matter how many times he's hit, while the bad guy eventually goes down after receiving some predetermined number/placement of hits. This was to train not to ever give up, but guard against, "I gotcha", "No you didn't", "Yes I did" etc. __________________ There's a reason The Sopranos is set in New Jersey. Basic Pistol

December 20th, 2005, 03:24 PM	#16
Free American Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Virginia Posts: 611	In my younger days of scrapping and sprts I have had several fairly "serious" injuries. Broken bones and torn ligaments. I did not notice the pain immediately and the situation was not life threatening. Based on that I believe (but not tempted to find out for sure) that I am capable of carrying on until completely incapacitated. I stick with that belief in the event that time comes and it turns out that what really matters is what you believe you are capable of. (power of positive thinking and all that) __________________ They who give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin Previously known as "cjm5874"

December 19th, 2005, 07:14 PM	#13
rocky Senior Moderator Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: MI Posts: 11,624	yes, training does really help. I Have LE training , and was assaulted 1 evening in a parking lot. Came up ready to do battle without even considering it. Training gets ya to react, instead of having to think it thru first.

December 20th, 2005, 04:53 PM	#17
rachilders Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Longview, TX Posts: 696	An interesting discussion. I've been shot, shot at and survived numerous life threatening situations over the years, but never at the same time! I was shot at in the military and as a teen (a neighbor thought I was a burglar once and fired at me with a shotgun... he missed). I was accidentally shot in the leg by a cousin who was cleaning a rife that was "unloaded" when I was 12. It was in the meaty part of my leg, on the inner thigh a few inches above the knee. BTW, it HURT! I can't remember the times I was a heartbeat away from seeing the white light at the end of the tunnel while flying for 20 years with the navy and I won't even include the accidents I've been in (broke my neck in the last one back in '94, that's why I retired from the navy) and the just plain dumb things I've done. I sometimes surprise myself I've lived as long as I have! What I've learned about myself is I don't panic. Maybe it's the navy training or just having "been there and done that" more times than I can count anymore. Still, the question I try to remind myself of is this... what about those things I haven't experienced? I've never been robbed at gunpoint or caught in the middle of a gunfight. I suppose I’ll keep my head, but until it happens, I'll never know for sure. I DO know getting shot hurts and that if fired on, I will fire back. Beyond that, I can only guess. __________________ "... Americans. We're homesteaders, we want a safe home, to keep the money we make, and shoot bad guys." -- Denny Crane

December 20th, 2005, 05:14 PM	#18
cmidkiff Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kansas City, Missouri Posts: 812	I'm in the 'don't know until you're there' camp. Truthfully, I hope to never find out. I managed to crack my ribs from collarbone to sternum while riding a dirtbike when I was young, in the middle of nowhere, by myself. Saying 'it hurt' really doesn't do it justice. I made it home, but I'm not entirely sure how. That's what counts, really, just make it home. __________________ Liberty is an inherently offensive lifestyle. Living in a free society guarantees that each one of us will see our most cherished principles and beliefs questioned and in some cases mocked. It's worth it.

December 20th, 2005, 07:32 PM	#19
Tom357 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Richmond VA Posts: 686	In my experience (not being shot), I felt the pressure of the blows I took, but did not feel the pain until after it was over. Being hit did not prevent me from staying focused on defending myself. When I broke my leg, this fall, I was in a situation where I could not stop what I was doing. I knew instantly that the leg was broken and that I could put no weight on it, but I felt no pain. I was able to hand off and solve the situation, and did not start to hurt until I was enroute to the hospital. This has made me imagine that if I were hit, it would not prevent me from defending myself unless it were a critical hit, that I would not lose focus on the problem at hand. I could be wrong, of course - shock can be tricksy - but I imagine, at least, that I would feel the pressure of the hit and be able to continue if I was able to continue at all, and wait to hurt until later. __________________ - Tom You have the power to donate life.

December 20th, 2005, 08:30 PM	#20
KevinInstructor Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Oregon USA Posts: 187	I have not been hit from a bullet but have been badly cut and beaten at different times. The two times I was cut it was not apparent how bad till much later, in one situation it was not till several days later that my tendon onto of my thumb was cut in two. Even the hospital doctor missed it. Can you prepare for this? Yes and no, it depends on your mind set not your training in and of itself. Will it work for everyone? No, at least in my mind, if you do not have the resilience to continue the fight in the wake of overwhelming odds or simply this is not in your demeanor then it is not going to happen. __________________ Stay Safe, Kevin CSSDSD Instructor ACCJT Certified LEO DT Instructor NRA Instructor

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode