AgentX

Whether you explicitly signed it or not, when you took the oath, you allowed the government to restrict your movements in a manner that, when applied to a private citizen, would constitute unreasonable seizure, and you allowed the government to conduct what would otherwise be considered unreasonable searches. You limited your own rights to freedom of expression, for example, in speech and dress. You gave away your right to indictment by a grand jury of your peers on felony crimes (under the UCMJ, anyhow). There're more, I'm sure, but those are some basics.

Not saying the limitation of currently-recognized rights to carry are reasonable or legal, even under the UCMJ, and I certainly think there's recourse, as you pointed out. But military members don't enjoy the same freedoms as civilians. Neither of us did when we served. And this case, orders must be followed until things are straightened out.

-AX

czman2006

Sorry, I did no such thing. Maybe I just served under better officers than some. I have previously stated the order must be obeyed until it is straightened out, just that the man should stand up for his rights and not accept every order as legal and binding just because some officer says it is. I never once in 20 years working with Naval Intelligence heard of anyone being told how to dress off work and off base. Yes, I wore a uniform and was proud of it, just as now as an EMT I wear a uniform. Part of the job. We're both proud of our service and should be. I think we just have different views on what some officers will try to use the UCMJ to say is a legal order and what it actually will tolerate. In any case, we each have the right to politely disagree and the man has the right to talk to his base legal office, as we both advise him to do. Shoot well.

__________________
"Let not your heart be troubled." John 14:1

USN Retired Vietnam/Desert Shield/Desert Storm

AgentX

Ah, well, lots of Marines are told just that...and it's enforced. Can't violate standards of dress and appearance (shave, civilian attire meeting regulations, no earrings, etc.) at any time in public. Judicial or non-judicial punishment could be handed out for infractions. Heck, motorcyclists were required to wear orange safetly vests at ALL times while riding, even off base.

Regardless of your perception of the matter, your 4th and 5th amendment rights, in particular, are abridged or limited by the military.

Luckily, we both agree on what's to be done in this case, so I don't think there's need to hijack this thread further...keep safe yourself, and thanks for your service.

-AX

dr_cmg

When in the military you can be told what to wear of the military reservation. I served at Fort Ord, CA before it was closed. That was during the days when the work uniform was fatiques. The fatique uniform was never authorize nor acceptable for appearance in public off post. You could travel from post to your off post quarters and you could travel from your off post quarters to post in fatiques. If you stoppe for gas and got out of the car to pump it and were caught you could and would be punished.

Everybody who has served in the military in the last 50 years was given classes concerning what you was permissible for military personnel to say concerning the government, about political candidates and the political process. Making statements supporting a political candidate is a major offense and someone who does this is not punished with a slap on the hand. It is likely you would serve time for this.

__________________
George

Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe. Albert Einstein

ExSoldier

I seriously doubt that pfc snuffy came out in vocal support of Hillary Clinton for President that he would serve time for the offense. But let GENERAL Snuffy say similar things and there is a possibility of censure by the establishment....although I doubt that even a general would "serve time." Military prisons...are for felony offenders....even the post stockade is usually reserved for criminal offenders like DUIs, AWOLs etc.

__________________
Former Infantry Captain; 20 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

JerryM

Justification is not the issue. The CG has the authority to publish the letter and make the policy. If you disobey you will face punishment under the UCMJ.

You may not like it but it is the law there. Don't risk the consequences, which may or may not be severe.

Jerry

Sheldon J

Maybe he does but travelling in many parts of Alaska unarmed constitutes a unsafe act in that you may and can become bear poop, there fore his order constitutes misuse of government property (you) which is in violation of government policy and is illegal. I'm sure a good JAG could take that and run with it.

__________________
"The sword dose not cause the murder, and the maker of the sword dose not bear sin" Rabbi Solomon ben Isaac 11th century

dr_cmg

You are right that Private Snuffy and General Snuffy would be treated differently. But for it even to be discovered from either it would have to be a major event. If either of them appeared on CNN or Fox and Friends making a political statement there would be repercussions. In that case the general would end up at Maxwell AFB in the white collar crimes pen or he would be offered the opportunity to retire depending on how egregious the offense was. The private might end up in the stockade, but would probably be confined to quarters for a significant period. In either case they could "serve time."

As for as prisions being reserved for felony offenders; I'm sure the two trainees who went to Leavenworth for beating up a 2LT would be glad to hear that. These two were tricked into gambling with this butterbar and as they were being transported back to their barracks they began to realize that they had been had. When they arrived they used just enough force to get their money and no more back. The sentence was 10 years each. The 2LT who violated a number of regs againt fraterization, gambling, etc. He got moved from being training officer in a training company to a do nothing job at brigade headquarters. As far as I know he never even got an oral reprimand. The old addage about messing up and moving up seemed to be in action. Never the less the charges against the two trainees would have been classified as misdemeanors in a civilian court and they ended up at Leavenworth. Strange things happen in the military.
Of course the same thing can be said for the civilian world now.

__________________
George

Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe. Albert Einstein

ExSoldier

When I was in striking an officer was a General Court Martial, BCD special and a trip to Leavenworth. When the military says 8 years "Hard Labor" they are talking the rock pile.

I was a screwy Looie once. And I screwed up a LOT. I used to say that my day was incomplete until I got at least one field grade a$$ chewing! As a general once told me, if Butterbars were perfect, they'd be commissioned as captains. 2LT is to screw up. 1LT is to screw up but less and not the same ones made as a 2LT. Captains are s'posed to get it right the first time. However any officer worth his salt will get it "right" IF he listens to his 1SG & CSM for political crap and his E7 platoon Sgt for everything else. But it's very true, in a situation like that and several I could describe from personal experience, the officer corps DOES take care of it's own. Sometimes it may take them a little bit of time to get "off the dime..." but they usually do.

__________________
Former Infantry Captain; 20 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

dr_cmg

The offense was a GCM, but in the civilian world it would have been a minor offense. I was a butterbar myself and made some mistakes. I finished my active duty with 2 years and 1 month plus time in grade as a 1LT. Fortunately for me I had a father who had been a MSG and he drummed it into my head: Trust and rely on your NCOs. He would tell me just because he has to call you sir does not mean that he knows less than you do. I tried to heed his advice and never had any real problems. Of course I found out that just because a man has made it to E7 or E8 does not necessarily mean he has the answers.

My first assignment as a 2LT out of officer basic was at Ft. Ord, CA as a training officer. Within one week my company commander was relieved. About 5 weeks into my assignment the 1ST was killed in an auto accident that was highly suspect. Although it was ruled an accident I have always felt that it was suicide. I was the survivor assistance officer and in process of doing that and a line of duty investigation I discovered at least two "wives" beside the one living on post. The one living on post was not legally his wife. He had just bought a large life insurance policy and had not even made the first month's premium. The company paid off double because of the accidental death and withheld the first month's premium. Only one other wife was dealt with. The other one who claimed to be the wife was fairly quickly dealt with. I did not include in my report the one in Korea or the one in Germany because they never came to the US. I was finally ordered to turn in both reports and they were both rejected. I was "instructed" to change my determination - I had determined that the woman living in Stockton, CA and not the one on post was the legal wife. The Army was not happy with that because the woman living on post had been allowed to live in military housing for about 12 years. I declined to change my determination and my battalion and brigade commanders backed me up. This was in late early 1972. When I left active duty in March 1974 the case was still open. Anyway inspite of one senior NCO messing up I still tried to get all the info and advice I could from my NCOs because they had much more experience than I did. I usually followed their advice. A few times I didn't and about 50% of the time I made the right choice there.

Concerning the young man who originated this thread however; the only good and solid advice that can be offered to him is to obey orders and take the situation up with JAG. Anything other than that is playing a losing game and one that can cost him a whole lot more than he can afford.

__________________
George

Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe. Albert Einstein