Need some serious Advice

justin_stuart_21 · March 3rd, 2006, 01:13 PM

Good Morning Everyone,

I need some advice from some if possible. I am in the U.S Army for a few more months I do carry concealed when I am off post. I recently was told about the following policy letter I pasted below. It can also be viewed at (http://www.usarak.army.mil/policies/...EMENT%2020.pdf) Please note that is requires adobe. I have spoke to a soldier who used to be a detective and a cop and says that this letter has no real justification. What do some of you think?

Thanks

Jutsin Stuart

APVR-RUPM
DEPARTMENT THE ARMY
HEADQUARTERS, ARMY ALASKA
724 SERVICE LOOP
FORT RICHARDSON, ALASKA 99505-5000
21 FEB 06
MEMORANDUM FOR SEE DISTRIBUTION
SUBJECT: Concealed Weapons Policy (CG/CofS Policy #0-20)
1. Carrying concealed deadly weapons by USARAK Soldiers represents a significant risk to the
safety and welfare of this command. Accordingly, all Soldiers assigned or attached to USARAK
are prohibited from carrying a concealed deadly weapon in public places off of all USARAK
posts. All persons are prohibited from carrying concealed deadly weapons on USARAK posts
IAW USARAK Regulation 190-1.
2. Definitions:
a. Carry means on or about the person, or uncased within the immediate vicinity of the
person, so as to be available for immediate use, e.g. in the person's automobile.
b. Deadly weapon means any fiream or anything designed for or capable of causing death
or serious physical injury.
c. Concealed means hidden from plain view.
d. Firearm means a weapon, including a pistol, revolver, rifle, or shotgun, whether loaded or
unloaded, operable or inoperable, designed to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive
charge or primer.
e. Public place means a place to which the public or a substantial group of persons has
access. This includes locations involved in the sale of alcoholic beverages, highways,
transportation facilities, schools, places of business, places of amusement, parks, playgrounds
and prisons. It also includes hallways, lobbies, and other portions of apartment houses and hotels
not constituting rooms or appartments designed for actual residence.
3. This policy is punitive. Soldiers who fail to comply with the requirements of this policy are
subject to adverse administrative action and/or punishment under the Uniform Code of Military
Justice.
CHARLES H. ACOBY
Major General, USA
Commanding
DISTRIB UTION:
A

cmidkiff · March 3rd, 2006, 01:22 PM

Letter appears quite clear to me. As much as I disagree with the position of the people who wrote this, their meaning is clearly stated.

No carrying on or around USARAK posts by USARAK personel.

As a punitive violation, if caught violating this policy, you could be punished under the UCMJ.

All that said, you have to decide for yourself. Are you willing to break this policy, and stand for the punishment, in order to defend yourself? I don't know what advice we can offer. How likely is it that Major General Acoby will change his mind?

fed_wif_a_sig · March 3rd, 2006, 01:22 PM

Ohhh it has plenty of jurisdiction...it covers every single member of the armed forces stationed, attached or assigned to HQ Army Alaska.

Its an order plain and simple and no matter what you want to do you MUST comply. Its the stupidest order I have ever seen given but its an order and as a soldier you are bound by the UCMJ to comply.

2nd, Immediately contact the NRA. I would reach out to them and see if they can do something about it. The contact info for the NRA Institute for Legislative Action at
NRA-ILA
11250 Waples Mill Road
Fairfax, Virginia 22030
800-392-8683 - Grassroots Hotline

But, I hope you're a member. Sucks to be you but an order is an order.

duckhunter · March 3rd, 2006, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by justin_stuart_21

I have spoke to a soldier who used to be a detective and a cop and says that this letter has no real justification. What do some of you think?

Talk to a JAG before you take your buddy's advice - I believe he is incorrect. At first blush, this looks like it is well within the Commander's legal purvue. The Uniform Code of Military Justice gives Commanders a remarkable level of discretion in regulating a service member's on and off-duty conduct. I don't agree with the policy, but nevertheless it seems legal. Again, I would talk to the post JAG.

ka0azs · March 3rd, 2006, 01:35 PM

Uncle Sugar owns you 24/7 during your enlistment. There's no real "off duty", simply times that you're not required to be at your duty location. In my opinon (INAL, but did serve 10 years as an Officer), this is a legally binding order and you are obligated to comply with it. Whether it is "justified" or not is of no relevance.

You might want to call the JAG office and make sure they've seen it and agree as to it's legality.

I would also think that the Alaska state congressional/Senatorial delgation might be interested in this. Funny how even Flag Officers can change their opinons when they get a few inquiries from Capitol Hill.

jarhead79 · March 3rd, 2006, 01:42 PM

Here's what I get from it. I'm no lawyer, but while I was in, I nitpicked every rule and regulation that I came across. It's amazing how much misinterpretation there is when it comes to decyphering military crap. (by crap I mean CRAP)

In AK, as I understand, one may carry concealed without permit. This conservative law, mixed with what I know of young American fighting men, is not a good mix. There is more irresponsibility among our ranks than can be appreciated. I feel that it is caused by the micro-management of them when they first come into the military. They aren't made to be responsible for anything they do unless it is heignous.

Anyway, this is a way for the command to try to control these young'uns. In Southern California, they take certain areas off limits for servicemen and will burn you hard if you go there and get caught. In a sense, you lose many freedoms when you joint to defend the same freedoms. (but this is no news)

In a nutshell, it's an over-zealous commander, trying to buck for his set of wings or next star. Seen it once, seen it a hundred times. This is 'usually' where the silly rules come from. One or two soldiers carry a gun concealed and do something stupid with it over the course of a few years and the one officer says 'I'll put a stop to that, I'm Superman'. And there's your rule.

You've got a choice. Continue carrying and risk getting charged (if you get caught). Or, don't carry for a few more months to ensure your discharge. Me, it'd depend on how rough the neighborhoods are that you frequent.

Tom357 · March 3rd, 2006, 02:11 PM

Perhaps of more import is CG/CofS Policy #0-17, regarding privately owned firearms belonging to all personnel attached or assigned to USARAK. IIRC, Commanding General/Chief of Staff policies have the force of general orders within the command, and so have the force of military law. They also take precedence over state/local law. If I were you, especially since you are apparently going to be discharged in a few months, I would comply with the General's orders until you muster out.

czman2006 · March 3rd, 2006, 02:15 PM

When I was in the USN, I was checking in to a new command and was given a letter from XO (Executive Officer) to sign stating that any contraband found in or on my bunk aboard ship was my responsibility. Someone could place a joint on my bunk and I was guilty! I refused to sign, stating that it was a violation of my rights which I did not give up when I enlisted and took a copy to the ship's legal officer. Within four hours all command service jackets had the letter pulled and the XO had a serious talk to by the ship's XO. Don't violate it at this point but check with the legal office on base and stand up for your rights.

P95Carry · March 3rd, 2006, 02:25 PM

Quote:

prohibited from carrying a concealed deadly weapon in public places off of all USARAK
posts.

Am I reading this bit right? Is this as I take it to be - stating that you would be barred from carry - anywhere, at all? On base I can easily understand but - to deny you any right of legal carry in your personal and private life away from base - that seems a serious breech of your basic rights.

rstickle · March 3rd, 2006, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by justin_stuart_21

I have spoke to a soldier who used to be a detective and a cop and says that this letter has no real justification. What do some of you think?

The General said so! That is enough justification for right now. Unless something changes his mind I'd assume that you can be charged with "something" under UCMJ if you are caught.

March 3rd, 2006, 01:13 PM	#1
justin_stuart_21 New Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Fairbanks Posts: 6	Need some serious Advice Good Morning Everyone, I need some advice from some if possible. I am in the U.S Army for a few more months I do carry concealed when I am off post. I recently was told about the following policy letter I pasted below. It can also be viewed at (http://www.usarak.army.mil/policies/...EMENT%2020.pdf) Please note that is requires adobe. I have spoke to a soldier who used to be a detective and a cop and says that this letter has no real justification. What do some of you think? Thanks Jutsin Stuart APVR-RUPM DEPARTMENT THE ARMY HEADQUARTERS, ARMY ALASKA 724 SERVICE LOOP FORT RICHARDSON, ALASKA 99505-5000 21 FEB 06 MEMORANDUM FOR SEE DISTRIBUTION SUBJECT: Concealed Weapons Policy (CG/CofS Policy #0-20) 1. Carrying concealed deadly weapons by USARAK Soldiers represents a significant risk to the safety and welfare of this command. Accordingly, all Soldiers assigned or attached to USARAK are prohibited from carrying a concealed deadly weapon in public places off of all USARAK posts. All persons are prohibited from carrying concealed deadly weapons on USARAK posts IAW USARAK Regulation 190-1. 2. Definitions: a. Carry means on or about the person, or uncased within the immediate vicinity of the person, so as to be available for immediate use, e.g. in the person's automobile. b. Deadly weapon means any fiream or anything designed for or capable of causing death or serious physical injury. c. Concealed means hidden from plain view. d. Firearm means a weapon, including a pistol, revolver, rifle, or shotgun, whether loaded or unloaded, operable or inoperable, designed to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive charge or primer. e. Public place means a place to which the public or a substantial group of persons has access. This includes locations involved in the sale of alcoholic beverages, highways, transportation facilities, schools, places of business, places of amusement, parks, playgrounds and prisons. It also includes hallways, lobbies, and other portions of apartment houses and hotels not constituting rooms or appartments designed for actual residence. 3. This policy is punitive. Soldiers who fail to comply with the requirements of this policy are subject to adverse administrative action and/or punishment under the Uniform Code of Military Justice. CHARLES H. ACOBY Major General, USA Commanding DISTRIB UTION: A

March 3rd, 2006, 01:22 PM	#2
cmidkiff Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kansas City, Missouri Posts: 834	Letter appears quite clear to me. As much as I disagree with the position of the people who wrote this, their meaning is clearly stated. No carrying on or around USARAK posts by USARAK personel. As a punitive violation, if caught violating this policy, you could be punished under the UCMJ. All that said, you have to decide for yourself. Are you willing to break this policy, and stand for the punishment, in order to defend yourself? I don't know what advice we can offer. How likely is it that Major General Acoby will change his mind? __________________ Liberty is an inherently offensive lifestyle. Living in a free society guarantees that each one of us will see our most cherished principles and beliefs questioned and in some cases mocked. It's worth it.

March 3rd, 2006, 01:22 PM	#3
fed_wif_a_sig Distinguished Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Denton, TX Posts: 1,369	Ohhh it has plenty of jurisdiction...it covers every single member of the armed forces stationed, attached or assigned to HQ Army Alaska. Its an order plain and simple and no matter what you want to do you MUST comply. Its the stupidest order I have ever seen given but its an order and as a soldier you are bound by the UCMJ to comply. 2nd, Immediately contact the NRA. I would reach out to them and see if they can do something about it. The contact info for the NRA Institute for Legislative Action at NRA-ILA 11250 Waples Mill Road Fairfax, Virginia 22030 800-392-8683 - Grassroots Hotline But, I hope you're a member. Sucks to be you but an order is an order. __________________ Steve "Respect all ... Fear none!!!

March 3rd, 2006, 01:35 PM	#5
ka0azs Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Dayton Ohio Posts: 103	Uncle Sugar owns you 24/7 during your enlistment. There's no real "off duty", simply times that you're not required to be at your duty location. In my opinon (INAL, but did serve 10 years as an Officer), this is a legally binding order and you are obligated to comply with it. Whether it is "justified" or not is of no relevance. You might want to call the JAG office and make sure they've seen it and agree as to it's legality. I would also think that the Alaska state congressional/Senatorial delgation might be interested in this. Funny how even Flag Officers can change their opinons when they get a few inquiries from Capitol Hill. __________________ Randy NRA Life Member

March 3rd, 2006, 01:42 PM	#6
jarhead79 Distinguished Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Stansbury Park, UT Posts: 1,299	Here's what I get from it. I'm no lawyer, but while I was in, I nitpicked every rule and regulation that I came across. It's amazing how much misinterpretation there is when it comes to decyphering military crap. (by crap I mean CRAP) In AK, as I understand, one may carry concealed without permit. This conservative law, mixed with what I know of young American fighting men, is not a good mix. There is more irresponsibility among our ranks than can be appreciated. I feel that it is caused by the micro-management of them when they first come into the military. They aren't made to be responsible for anything they do unless it is heignous. Anyway, this is a way for the command to try to control these young'uns. In Southern California, they take certain areas off limits for servicemen and will burn you hard if you go there and get caught. In a sense, you lose many freedoms when you joint to defend the same freedoms. (but this is no news) In a nutshell, it's an over-zealous commander, trying to buck for his set of wings or next star. Seen it once, seen it a hundred times. This is 'usually' where the silly rules come from. One or two soldiers carry a gun concealed and do something stupid with it over the course of a few years and the one officer says 'I'll put a stop to that, I'm Superman'. And there's your rule. You've got a choice. Continue carrying and risk getting charged (if you get caught). Or, don't carry for a few more months to ensure your discharge. Me, it'd depend on how rough the neighborhoods are that you frequent. __________________ Sig P239 9mm Bersa Thunder.45 Ruger SP101 .38 SPL Glock 36 (night sites) UBG Holsters current wait time as of 7-16-2009: 3-5 weeks.

March 3rd, 2006, 02:11 PM	#7
Tom357 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Richmond VA Posts: 873	Perhaps of more import is CG/CofS Policy #0-17, regarding privately owned firearms belonging to all personnel attached or assigned to USARAK. IIRC, Commanding General/Chief of Staff policies have the force of general orders within the command, and so have the force of military law. They also take precedence over state/local law. If I were you, especially since you are apparently going to be discharged in a few months, I would comply with the General's orders until you muster out. __________________ - Tom You have the power to donate life.

March 3rd, 2006, 02:15 PM	#8
czman2006 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: NC Posts: 612	When I was in the USN, I was checking in to a new command and was given a letter from XO (Executive Officer) to sign stating that any contraband found in or on my bunk aboard ship was my responsibility. Someone could place a joint on my bunk and I was guilty! I refused to sign, stating that it was a violation of my rights which I did not give up when I enlisted and took a copy to the ship's legal officer. Within four hours all command service jackets had the letter pulled and the XO had a serious talk to by the ship's XO. Don't violate it at this point but check with the legal office on base and stand up for your rights. __________________ "Let not your heart be troubled." John 14:1 USN Retired Vietnam/Desert Shield/Desert Storm

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