Really Want Unlimited CCW in Church? - Page 11

Captain38 · July 7th, 2009, 05:22 PM

I recently had a walk-through with my pastor as to how he and I would plan to interact if he sensed a dangerous situation was developing in the sanctuary.

He seemed to understand and appreciate it.

nedrgr21 · July 7th, 2009, 07:40 PM

I still fail to see the logic behind the argument against church carry, but ok to have off-duty LEO's there. In terms of number of innocent people hurt in an active shooter scenario the order of most innocents shot is 1) bad guy, 2) LEO, 3)average joe with CCW. No offense to LEO's, but that's what the stats say. As has been said before, afar as training/practice, LEO's typically only practice right before qual, CCW'ers practice much more often than than (in my experience) - an LEO's don't have to pay for their ammo.

Ragin Cajun · July 7th, 2009, 07:52 PM

Everyone who has a conceal carry permit has the right to carry their weapon concealed to protect themselves and their family. Even though Colorado allows open carry, we will not allow it on our church's property. It a topic that anyone with common sense should understand why and I won't even debate it.

We realize there is always the possibility that if something happens, we may get someone not on the team with a CCW get involved and that could be very dangerous for us as well as them. I hope they realize that as well. That is one of the hazards of the job for us and one you must except if your going to do it. My stance is; I'm there to do a job for the church to protect the flock. If something happens, don't get in the way of anyone on the security team. We will deal with it until the police arrive and then it is their scene. We have spent a lot of our own money on training and we spend a lot of hours every month training for different scenarios in the building and I feel with the amount of training we have done, and continue to do, it puts us in a more suited place to deal with problems then Joe Smoe with a CCW. There are still no guarantees...

Most of security work is risk management. You have to look at the risk involved and then take action to lower the possibility of that risk becoming a problem. There are several things you should do to help lower that risk as far as worrying about CCW holders in your congregation.
1) Do everything you can to find out who is carrying. We actually put the question on the welcome card and had 7 people respond that they carried. That is 7 out of 1100 but also 7 more then we knew of before. Talk to people you know and trust, ask if they know anyone who carries. Observe people while on duty.

2) Once you have identified carriers, talk to them, and get to know them. Make them aware that you have people in house to deal with any issues that may come up.

3) Make sure your team knows who these people are and try to make sure they know who's on your team.

Who knows, by doing those things you may find new members for your team and make a few friends.

kentuckycarry · July 7th, 2009, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ragin Cajun

Everyone who has a conceal carry permit has the right to carry their weapon concealed to protect themselves and their family. Even though Colorado allows open carry, we will not allow it on our church's property. It a topic that anyone with common sense should understand why and I won't even debate it.

We realize there is always the possibility that if something happens, we may get someone not on the team with a CCW get involved and that could be very dangerous for us as well as them. I hope they realize that as well. That is one of the hazards of the job for us and one you must except if your going to do it. My stance is; I'm there to do a job for the church to protect the flock. If something happens, don't get in the way of anyone on the security team. We will deal with it until the police arrive and then it is their scene. We have spent a lot of our own money on training and we spend a lot of hours every month training for different scenarios in the building and I feel with the amount of training we have done, and continue to do, it puts us in a more suited place to deal with problems then Joe Smoe with a CCW. There are still no guarantees...

Most of security work is risk management. You have to look at the risk involved and then take action to lower the possibility of that risk becoming a problem. There are several things you should do to help lower that risk as far as worrying about CCW holders in your congregation.
1) Do everything you can to find out who is carrying. We actually put the question on the welcome card and had 7 people respond that they carried. That is 7 out of 1100 but also 7 more then we knew of before. Talk to people you know and trust, ask if they know anyone who carries. Observe people while on duty.

2) Once you have identified carriers, talk to them, and get to know them. Make them aware that you have people in house to deal with any issues that may come up.

3) Make sure your team knows who these people are and try to make sure they know who's on your team.

Who knows, by doing those things you may find new members for your team and make a few friends.

I would'nt tell you I carry in church... Its MY business..If my family member or me was a target, I'm not going to sit and wait for those who opted to tell you they carry to defend me or my family. You can PLAN all you want and thats fine, but who knows how it's going to play out "your way"? It rarely does.

United93 · July 7th, 2009, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ragin Cajun

2) Once you have identified carriers, talk to them, and get to know them. Make them aware that you have people in house to deal with any issues that may come up.

When it comes to the safety of my loved ones and myself, the church security team is only a part of the plan. Myself and my weapons are the plan that I trust most. No offense, but don't be surprised if some people tell you that your "team" is well and good, but that they have their own plan if their family is threatened, and it doesn't include counting on you.

kpw · July 7th, 2009, 09:02 PM

We don't have church ninjas in our town.

JimmyC4 · July 7th, 2009, 11:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kpw

We don't have church ninjas in our town.

Oh yes you do; stealthy church ninjas...

Ragin Cajun · July 8th, 2009, 12:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by United93

When it comes to the safety of my loved ones and myself, the church security team is only a part of the plan. Myself and my weapons are the plan that I trust most. No offense, but don't be surprised if some people tell you that your "team" is well and good, but that they have their own plan if their family is threatened, and it doesn't include counting on you.

No offense taken, I'm glad to hear you have a plan. I wish everyone would have a plan. My point is the people who carry should know that there are people who will be engaging the trouble maker / shooter. I for one really don't want to get shot by a CCW holder in the congregation nor do I want to shoot a good guy either if forced to make the decision if coming across someone with a gun drawn.

GWRedDragon · July 8th, 2009, 12:49 AM

Quote:

Really Want Unlimited CCW in Church?

Yes.

TX-JB · July 8th, 2009, 12:58 AM

In Texas, church's must post a 30.06 sign if they want to prohibit concealed carry. I've visited many church's and haven't seen a 30.06 sign yet.

July 7th, 2009, 07:52 PM	#103
Ragin Cajun Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Colorado Posts: 672	My perspective as a church security team leader Everyone who has a conceal carry permit has the right to carry their weapon concealed to protect themselves and their family. Even though Colorado allows open carry, we will not allow it on our church's property. It a topic that anyone with common sense should understand why and I won't even debate it. We realize there is always the possibility that if something happens, we may get someone not on the team with a CCW get involved and that could be very dangerous for us as well as them. I hope they realize that as well. That is one of the hazards of the job for us and one you must except if your going to do it. My stance is; I'm there to do a job for the church to protect the flock. If something happens, don't get in the way of anyone on the security team. We will deal with it until the police arrive and then it is their scene. We have spent a lot of our own money on training and we spend a lot of hours every month training for different scenarios in the building and I feel with the amount of training we have done, and continue to do, it puts us in a more suited place to deal with problems then Joe Smoe with a CCW. There are still no guarantees... Most of security work is risk management. You have to look at the risk involved and then take action to lower the possibility of that risk becoming a problem. There are several things you should do to help lower that risk as far as worrying about CCW holders in your congregation. 1) Do everything you can to find out who is carrying. We actually put the question on the welcome card and had 7 people respond that they carried. That is 7 out of 1100 but also 7 more then we knew of before. Talk to people you know and trust, ask if they know anyone who carries. Observe people while on duty. 2) Once you have identified carriers, talk to them, and get to know them. Make them aware that you have people in house to deal with any issues that may come up. 3) Make sure your team knows who these people are and try to make sure they know who's on your team. Who knows, by doing those things you may find new members for your team and make a few friends.

July 7th, 2009, 09:02 PM	#106
kpw Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: PA Posts: 1,116	We don't have church ninjas in our town. __________________ "In a republic this rule ought to be observed: that the majority should not have the predominant power." - -- Marcus Tullius Cicero

July 8th, 2009, 12:58 AM	#110
TX-JB VIP Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Sugar Land, TX Posts: 3,169	In Texas, church's must post a 30.06 sign if they want to prohibit concealed carry. I've visited many church's and haven't seen a 30.06 sign yet. __________________ *"We're in Texas....Things are different here."* *NRA Life Member*

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July 7th, 2009, 05:22 PM	#101
Captain38 Member Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 155	I recently had a walk-through with my pastor as to how he and I would plan to interact if he sensed a dangerous situation was developing in the sanctuary. He seemed to understand and appreciate it.

July 7th, 2009, 07:40 PM	#102
nedrgr21 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: KCMO Posts: 556	I still fail to see the logic behind the argument against church carry, but ok to have off-duty LEO's there. In terms of number of innocent people hurt in an active shooter scenario the order of most innocents shot is 1) bad guy, 2) LEO, 3)average joe with CCW. No offense to LEO's, but that's what the stats say. As has been said before, afar as training/practice, LEO's typically only practice right before qual, CCW'ers practice much more often than than (in my experience) - an LEO's don't have to pay for their ammo.