rhinokrk

Good thing it's not your place to trust strangers with a gun. There are many here who would probably feel the same about you or me, if given the authority.

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psychophipps

Yes, I really want unlimited legal CCW in my church.

ccw9mm

The trick is realizing there already is unlimited illegal carry of weapons everywhere, by criminals. In almost every way definable, the greatest weapon against that fact is unlimited legal carry by upstanding people. The more, the better, because the more-certain it gets as to a criminal's demise if anything should be attempted. In my opinion, THAT is the greatest deterrent, bar none.

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Thoughts: Justifiable self defense.
Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
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pax

Typically, church shootings have historically involved mass murder events: the intruder intends to kill as many people as he can, as fast as he can. He is aiming for innocent people as he shoots.

Where in the world do people get the idea that the risk to these innocents from the murderer's deliberately aimed shots is somehow lower than the risk to them from a defender's missed shots? That's truly a nutty idea!

A defender -- even a "poorly trained" one who "doesn't have experience making decisions under stress" -- will not be deliberately mowing down innocents. Even if one shot goes wild and hits a bystander, that bystander was destined to die anyway along with all other bystanders in range, from the murderer's bullets, if the defender wasn't there to stop the murderer. That's the cold hard reality.

Typically, mass murder events involve a single individual mowing down as many as 8 people a minute during the active phase; in 75% of cases, the killer brings more than one firearm to the scene along with extra ammunition in order to extend the killing phase as long as possible. The incidents are over quickly: almost always under 20 minutes, usually under 10 minutes, often under 5 minutes. The rapid firing rate and quick conclusion are almost certainly driven by police response times, because the active murderer typically continues to kill at his leisure until he is stopped by an outside force. Roughly half the time, the killer is stopped by an unarmed civilian or group of civilians, a quarter of the time it's an armed civilian, and a quarter of the time it's the arrival of the police that finally stops the killing. When police or armed citizens show up, the active killer takes his own life in 90% of incidents.

By definition, an active killer does not take hostages and he does not negotiate. He simply kills and continues to do so until he is stopped.

At 8 deaths a minute, waiting for the arrival of the police can be a very costly proposition. At 8 deaths a minute, almost anything the intended victims can do in response should be done -- even if those things are nominally risky to others. There is no time to spare looking for a "perfect" response. The killings will continue until the killer is stopped.

At 8 deaths a minute, even if the defender missed the attacker with every single shot in his entire magazine, and even if the defender hit a bystander with every single missed shot! (need I say that's an unlikely outcome?) -- there would still be more danger to the intended victims from the murderer than there was from the incompetent defender. Especially since the vast majority of active killers immediately commit suicide at the first sign of armed resistance, which stops the killing just as certainly as if the killer is shot by someone else.

Facts drawn from Ron Borsch's work, found online at Force Science News #97: Ohio Trainer Makes the Case for Single-Officer Entry Against Active Killers at Force Science News and Force Science News #98: Solo Officers vs. Active Killers: Officers Speak Out at Force Science News and ILEETA Report: Features of the Active Killer

pax

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FlyboyLDB

Here is your problem. If you have unlimited people carrying and something goes down, there is high probability of the "Non BG" people being shot. There are too many trigger happy and loose cannons out there just waiting for what they perceive as a threat – when the threat is elsewhere. You will have permit\license holders shooting other permit\license holders. Plus non armed being caught in the cross fire. Choose a very select few. Require them to attend training. Have them seat strategically. And warn the congregation no others are allowed to have a weapon on the property. If something breaks out and you are not on the chosen security detail – and you display your weapon – you will be considered a threat and appropriate action could follow. If they don’t like, too bad – take your tithes elsewhere. Your church, your rules.

Rotorblade

You could use this logic/argument to ban CCW statewide. Just replace "Chose a select few" with "Police Officer", replace "Attend training" with "Police academy", and replace "Seat strategically" with "Strategic law enforcement patrols".

Your scenario about CCW holders getting up from their seats and blasting away at each other seems a little far fetched.
Could there be some innocent person caught in the crossfire....yes, that is a possibility, even in a room full of highly trained law enforcement personnel.
The only thing I agree with is that if you don't like the rules...find another Church!

ccw9mm

Exactly so.

And, it's going to become nearly certain who the GG responders are, given the direction of attention being paid to the one (or more) who broke the calm (aka the murderer). It's highly unlikely to end up with multiple GG carriers blasting each other.

Absolutely right. Imagine what could have been the result at Luby's had the damned laws supported survival of innocents. Just imagine.

__________________
Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
Thoughts: Justifiable self defense.
Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
Deal with evil through strength. Affirm the good in Man through trust.
NRA. GOA. OFF.

rhinokrk

Easy there,
I know quite a few permit holders, none of which I'd consider trigger happy loose cannons. They come from all walks of life, from Attorney General, Prosecutor, House Wives, Fast Food Workers (nephew), and Construction Laborers. All these people are mature level headed, respectful, and treat all people as equals.

I'd think pro 2a people would have a little better opinion of their peers. Remember, as far as training goes... your a joke to some, if not many. We all are.

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TravisABQ

"Trigger happy loose cannons"?

I just have to wonder what you THINK the proper response is for one, or a plurality of armed citizens in the pews, when a berserker comes in and starts shooting people?

Should he/they:

Wonder how this unfortunate fellow got the gun?

Engage the shooter in constructive and non-judgemental dialog?

Identify the person murdering people, and shoot him quickly in the chest and head?

The particular scenario is not one of coming along and seeing unknown A in a fight with unknown B.

In an active shooter situation, it does not take 30 seconds to figure what is wrong, and what needs to be done.

kentuckycarry

I think I feel insulted..... Wait....................... Yes I do

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