Really Want Unlimited CCW in Church? - Page 13

DaveH · July 9th, 2009, 12:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlyboyLDB

Here is your problem. If you have unlimited people carrying and something goes down, there is high probability of the "Non BG" people being shot. There are too many trigger happy and loose cannons out there just waiting for what they perceive as a threat – when the threat is elsewhere. You will have permit\license holders shooting other permit\license holders. Plus non armed being caught in the cross fire. Choose a very select few. Require them to attend training. Have them seat strategically. And warn the congregation no others are allowed to have a weapon on the property. If something breaks out and you are not on the chosen security detail – and you display your weapon – you will be considered a threat and appropriate action could follow. If they don’t like, too bad – take your tithes elsewhere. Your church, your rules.

Did Dan Casey of the Roanoke Time join the list? Sure reads like something he would write.

MinistrMalic · July 9th, 2009, 02:13 PM

Here is what I see. The argument for the "loose cannon" theory ONLY applies in churches that are large enough that you don't know the people there. If I am going to a church of 2000, then sure I may wonder who is a GG and who is a BG. In a congregation of 300, though, or smaller (we are 150-200) you should have a pretty good grasp of the people there. That eliminates the problem of not knowing who is who.

Even if I don't know who else carries in my church, I still know who they are. I think since I am an avowed gun nut that I know everyone who is carrying, but even if I am surprised that someone is armed in an active shooter scenario I still know church family from MWAG.

I suppose that is my next argument that the American church needs to go back to a model of smaller congregations and away from megachurches. However, I think most of the Church will not be interested in the argument. :)

tinkerinWstuff · July 9th, 2009, 02:48 PM

Rediculous arguement. I'd speculate that 1/4 of the people with CCW permits EDC. Nobody but the bad guys want to shoot someone so to say there are too many trigger happy loose cannons is rediculous. I'd be surprised if out of any one church, you'd find more than 3 people who carry. Show me an instance where there's been a whole congregation of crossfire.

JimmyC4 · July 9th, 2009, 03:08 PM

Q: Do you really want unlimited CCW in church?

A: Yes!

TucAzRider · July 9th, 2009, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tinkerinWstuff

Rediculous arguement. I'd speculate that 1/4 of the people with CCW permits EDC. Nobody but the bad guys want to shoot someone so to say there are too many trigger happy loose cannons is rediculous. I'd be surprised if out of any one church, you'd find more than 3 people who carry. Show me an instance where there's been a whole congregation of crossfire.

I agree with you Tinker,.. But the whole "3 people that carry" would depend on the church size.. Maybe 3 out of 75-100,.. You cannot say a church that has 2000 only has 3 and a church with 40 only has 3... But I know what your meaning..

JohnK87 · July 9th, 2009, 04:37 PM

If your church has 100 permit holders, the numbers will probably be along the lines of...

80 don't have it with them in church
15 don't respond to the threat at all because it is too far away or they just take cover
5 get guns out and focus on the bad guy
2 may actually be close enough to fire

Hopefully that is enough.

I'd like to have enough in there that chances are there is someone in there that is capable, close enough and willing to do something about it to stop the threat quickly.

McDougal · July 9th, 2009, 05:49 PM

What are these public churches you are talking about? I thought all churches in the US were privately owned. Which makes this whole thread moot.

mlr1m · July 9th, 2009, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by McDougal

What are these public churches you are talking about? I thought all churches in the US were privately owned. Which makes this whole thread moot.

Its all a part of the New World Order.

Michael

NCRonB · July 9th, 2009, 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimmyC4

Q: Do you really want unlimited CCW in church?

A: Yes!

What he said.

Unless someone else is going to stay next to me 24/7 to take responsibility for my survival, willing and able to sacrifice themselves for my life, then I want unlimited CC everywhere.

ccw9mm · July 9th, 2009, 11:25 PM

Quote:

If you have unlimited people carrying and something goes down, there is high probability of the "Non BG" people being shot. There are too many trigger happy and loose cannons out there just waiting for what they perceive as a threat – when the threat is elsewhere. You will have permit\license holders shooting other permit\license holders.

Most churches already have unlimited carry of defensive weapons, unless they enforce outright bans or limited security teams. And, no such eruptions of multi-GG crossfire have occurred that I've ever heard of.

Does anyone know of even one such instance?

I mean, these are the GG's we're speaking of. Generally speaking, we have built-in morality meters that temper our responses in such a way that make such heinous acts of blind-fool, knee-jerk reactions (such as in crowded halls of people) unknown.

Fear such possibilities all you want. But until it actually starts happening, it's hardly a threat to be concerned with.

July 9th, 2009, 02:13 PM	#122
MinistrMalic Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 484	Here is what I see. The argument for the "loose cannon" theory ONLY applies in churches that are large enough that you don't know the people there. If I am going to a church of 2000, then sure I may wonder who is a GG and who is a BG. In a congregation of 300, though, or smaller (we are 150-200) you should have a pretty good grasp of the people there. That eliminates the problem of not knowing who is who. Even if I don't know who else carries in my church, I still know who they are. I think since I am an avowed gun nut that I know everyone who is carrying, but even if I am surprised that someone is armed in an active shooter scenario I still know church family from MWAG. I suppose that is my next argument that the American church needs to go back to a model of smaller congregations and away from megachurches. However, I think most of the Church will not be interested in the argument. :) __________________ "...whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one." (Luke 22:36) Here is my blog if you're interested :)

July 9th, 2009, 02:48 PM	#123
tinkerinWstuff Distinguished Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Colorado Front Range Posts: 1,206	Rediculous arguement. I'd speculate that 1/4 of the people with CCW permits EDC. Nobody but the bad guys want to shoot someone so to say there are too many trigger happy loose cannons is rediculous. I'd be surprised if out of any one church, you'd find more than 3 people who carry. Show me an instance where there's been a whole congregation of crossfire. __________________ "Run for your life from the man who tells you that money is evil. That sentence is the leper's bell of an approaching looter. So long as men live together on earth and need means to deal with one another-their only substitute, if they abandon money, is the muzzle of a gun." Who is John Galt?

July 9th, 2009, 03:08 PM	#124
JimmyC4 Distinguished Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Minnesnowta Posts: 1,863	Q: Do you really want unlimited CCW in church? A: Yes! __________________ "It's a big gun when I carry it, it is also a big gun when I take it out” – Clint Smith

July 9th, 2009, 04:37 PM	#126
JohnK87 Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Hastings, MN Posts: 178	If your church has 100 permit holders, the numbers will probably be along the lines of... 80 don't have it with them in church 15 don't respond to the threat at all because it is too far away or they just take cover 5 get guns out and focus on the bad guy 2 may actually be close enough to fire Hopefully that is enough. I'd like to have enough in there that chances are there is someone in there that is capable, close enough and willing to do something about it to stop the threat quickly. __________________ If you are a warrior who is legally authorized to carry a weapon and you step outside without that weapon, then you become a sheep, pretending that the bad man will not come today. No one can be "on" 24/7, but if you walk outside without it, just take a deep breath, and say this to yourself..."Baa."

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July 9th, 2009, 05:49 PM	#127
McDougal Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: USA Posts: 24	What are these public churches you are talking about? I thought all churches in the US were privately owned. Which makes this whole thread moot.