Really Want Unlimited CCW in Church? - Page 2

mfcmb · July 3rd, 2009, 10:28 PM

Quote:

So with such scenarios in mind, would you really want just anyone with a license to carry and maybe cause more harm than the BG if he was unwise or unskilled? I would not.

Yes, if a person's licensed for CCW I'd want to let them carry if they chose to do so, and to use their gun if they chose to do so.

retsupt99 · July 3rd, 2009, 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JerryM

1. A church, during the regular services, is relatively crowded.
Everywhere people go is crowded...

2. The average CHL holder is not an especially good shot, and has not had the experience of having to make decisions using deadly force.
I've not read of too many CCW holders shooting innocent individuals while repelling crime...
3 There may be dangers to others if a shot is missed or a bullet penetrated completely through.
There is always that possibility, but what if you had to take that chance to save the lives of family members? Would you take it?
Same goes for most places BG's pick out their victims...
4. We do not want the CHL holder to do more damage than the BG.
I agree, but life is not fair...we do what we have to do to survive.

I know that there are other aspects of a plan, but I would like to limit this thread to the question of who would you want to be carrying in a crowded place where your wife or children were at the time.

I would feel quite comfortable if every single person at church was armed.
Do we or do we not believe in 'RKBA'? Are you now suggesting that we ought to decide who can carry in crowded places? That's exactly what the current administration would like to do...no carry anywhere...it's very dangerous you know.

You keep the change, I'll keep my guns and religion.

Stay armed...stay respectful...stay safe!

JerryM · July 3rd, 2009, 11:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by retsupt99

I would feel quite comfortable if every single person at church was armed.
Do we or do we not believe in 'RKBA'? Are you now suggesting that we ought to decide who can carry in crowded places? That's exactly what the current administration would like to do...no carry anywhere...it's very dangerous you know.

You keep the change, I'll keep my guns and religion.

Stay armed...stay respectful...stay safe!

Not worrying about crowded places. In a church the leadership has a responsibility to determine whether or not anyone who wants to can carry.

There are no 2A rights in view as it does not pertain to what a church can do.
No, I do not support unlimited RKBA, and do support that a church, among other organizations, can determine whether or not carrying a gun in the church is permitted.

I dispute that accuracy is not important. How many here can make a killiing shot at 10 -20 yards when people are in panic and may even be running over you?

I have previously stated that I assist in teaching a CHL class. The requirements to qualify are 25 shots at a 12 x 18 inch target. Fifteen shots are at 3 yards, and 10 at 7 yards.
That kind of shooting does not indicate the level of skill needed in a crowded church.

If your family were close to the action, would you want a person who can only place 70% of his shots in a 12X18 target at 3 and 7 yards to begin shooting toward your family? I sure would not.
It is one thing to defend against a direct attack on you in the street or in a business. It is another to have to shoot inside a crowded place like a church.

Accordingly, I would make sure a person was more skilled than that, and that he could hit an 8 inch target 95% or even 100% at the maximum distance he would shoot.

In a crowd it is not difficult for men to overpower a shooter, even at the expense of getting shot or cut themselves.

We have already argued the pastor's authority, and 2 A. I am hoping that you will objectively consider whether you want anyone who has passed a test to start shooting in church if a BG attacked in the church. It is of interest that some states have no shooting qualification requirement.

Regards,
Jerry

Manan · July 3rd, 2009, 11:36 PM

A church is usually a group of like minded individuals worshiping their lord in the way they want. My particular denomination has issued a request that weapons of any kind not be possessed in any Church building. I honor and submit to their guidance. I do not carry my weapon while in church.

If I felt strong enough to go against the wishes of the governing church body I would find a different congregation to attend. One whose members or leadership felt the same way that I did.

Again, I honor and submit my will to those of my religious leadership.

HotGuns · July 3rd, 2009, 11:54 PM

Quote:

So with such scenarios in mind, would you really want just anyone with a license to carry and maybe cause more harm than the BG if he was unwise or unskilled? I would not.

No where has collateral damage been an issue. Could it be someday? Sure it could.

What does not work for me is being in a gun fight without a gun. If some jerk came into my church shooting, someone is going to die. I prefer it be him, and who does it is no concern of mine.

Quote:

My own thinking is that if I were in a position of authority I would want to have someone who I knew was capable and could act wisely.

Sounds good in theory.

Quote:

Before I would approve carrying by any individual I would want him to go through some sort of orientation and a test of skill. I would want to be satisfied he/she was a mature individual and would not see himself as a knight in shining armor or an off duty LEO.

I don't care as long as they have the gonads to stand up and attempt to end a threat.

Quote:

I know that there are other aspects of a plan, but I would like to limit this thread to the question of who would you want to be carrying in a crowded place where your wife or children were at the time.

FWIW...I do carry in church. I am an LEO. We do have a church security team comprised entirely of off duty LEO's, in fact I went to church last week in uniform and armed. Here In Arkansas only LEO's can carry in church. The law to amend that recently came up in the legislation, was very close to passing and the winning vote got up an left right in the middle of session. Personally, I think he should have been censored, fired and kicked out of the Assembly for refusing to do the job he was elected for, I suppose he learned that trick from Senator Obama.

I am not opposed to any CHL holder carrying in church. For one, people that know that would be less likely to get stupid and walk in and shoot the place up.

Two, if you have a limited amount of off duty LEO's in place, in a big church there are a lot of gaps that cant be covered. I go to a big church and I know this.

Three, the ideal of any concealed weapon holder worshiping with me is fine by me. In a battle I want as many friendly guns on my side as I can muster up.

As in any gunfight there is always the possibility of collateral damage. Having no guns in a gunfight ensure that the shooter will do well until he either kills himself or escapes.

If you are worried about being killed in church by" friendly fire", then either don't go there or find somewhere else to go.

The world is getting crazier by the day. Expecting people to be disarmed in church because they may not meet your standards is a bit naive.

retsupt99 · July 4th, 2009, 12:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HotGuns

No where has collateral damage been an issue. Could it be someday? Sure it could.

What does not work for me is being in a gun fight without a gun. If some jerk came into my church shooting, someone is going to die. I prefer it be him, and who does it is no concern of mine.

Sounds good in theory.

I don't care as long as they have the gonads to stand up and attempt to end a threat.

FWIW...I do carry in church. I am an LEO. We do have a church security team comprised entirely of off duty LEO's, in fact I went to church last week in uniform and armed. Here In Arkansas only LEO's can carry in church. The law to amend that recently came up in the legislation, was very close to passing and the winning vote got up an left right in the middle of session. Personally, I think he should have been censored, fired and kicked out of the Assembly for refusing to do the job he was elected for, I suppose he learned that trick from Senator Obama.

I am not opposed to any CHL holder carrying in church. For one, people that know that would be less likely to get stupid and walk in and shoot the place up.

Two, if you have a limited amount of off duty LEO's in place, in a big church there are a lot of gaps that cant be covered. I go to a big church and I know this.

Three, the ideal of any concealed weapon holder worshiping with me is fine by me. In a battle I want as many friendly guns on my side as I can muster up.

As in any gunfight there is always the possibility of collateral damage. Having no guns in a gunfight ensure that the shooter will do well until he either kills himself or escapes.

If you are worried about being killed in church by" friendly fire", then either don't go there or find somewhere else to go.

The world is getting crazier by the day. Expecting people to be disarmed in church because they may not meet your standards is a bit naive.

I agree...

JohnK87 · July 4th, 2009, 12:04 AM

There is very little you can do in training or practice to prepare for the shock, adrenaline dump, and confusion of an active shooter scenario that starts without warning. Accuracy against paper at a range has little to do with it.

Blackeagle · July 4th, 2009, 12:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JerryM

If your family were close to the action, would you want a person who can only place 70% of his shots in a 12X18 target at 3 and 7 yards to begin shooting toward your family? I sure would not.

I would much rather have a CHL holder who is trying not to shoot any innocent bystanders shooting than a nutcase who is trying to shoot innocent bystanders.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JerryM

It is one thing to defend against a direct attack on you in the street or in a business. It is another to have to shoot inside a crowded place like a church.

As I said earlier, there are plenty of places that can be crowded: movie theaters, restaurants, malls, even sidewalks. Would you bar CCW in these places as well?

First Sgt · July 4th, 2009, 12:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JerryM

Not worrying about crowded places. In a church the leadership has a responsibility to determine whether or not anyone who wants to can carry. Exactly. If your state law says no carrying in church unless approved by the leadership, then abide by the decision of the leadership or attend a church that allows you to carry regardless. ARE YOU IN A LEADERSHIP POSITION TO MAKE THAT DECISION?

There are no 2A rights in view as it does not pertain to what a church can do. Again, the law and the church leadership will dictate your right to carry.
No, I do not support unlimited RKBA, and do support that a church, among other organizations, can determine whether or not carrying a gun in the church is permitted. If you support the decision of your church leaders then you MUST support unlimited RTKBA, otherwise why support the decisions of the leadership, go with just a security team and have the leadership ban all others from carrying.

I dispute that accuracy is not important. How many here can make a killiing shot at 10 -20 yards when people are in panic and may even be running over you? Accuracy obviously takes precedence. Training to gain that accuracy is of utmost importance. You train to know what is an acceptable sight picture for a given shot and you shoot one shot at a time. I doubt very seriously if ANY responsible person will attempt a "killing shot" at 10-20 yards in a crowded church when people are in panic mode, when they realize their maximum capability is a 5-7 yard shot.

I have previously stated that I assist in teaching a CHL class. The requirements to qualify are 25 shots at a 12 x 18 inch target. Fifteen shots are at 3 yards, and 10 at 7 yards.
That kind of shooting does not indicate the level of skill needed in a crowded church. There are many individuals, that have trained to be decisive, aggressive, cool, and ruthless when confronted with a self defense situation. Just because your class only requires 25 shots to punch holes in a paper target, does not mean that others are not qualified to step up in a deadly life threatening situation. I hope, based on your concerns, that YOU are one of those that continues to train train train to master a higher level of confidence and ability to deal with these scenarios.

If your family were close to the action, would you want a person who can only place 70% of his shots in a 12X18 target at 3 and 7 yards to begin shooting toward your family? I sure would not.
It is one thing to defend against a direct attack on you in the street or in a business. It is another to have to shoot inside a crowded place like a church. My family knows, in a SHTF situation, to either seek cover and/or concealment or exit the area. Myself alone will determine whether or not a shot or shots need to be taken. I will depend on MY judgement and no one elses when it comes to defending my family.

Accordingly, I would make sure a person was more skilled than that, and that he could hit an 8 inch target 95% or even 100% at the maximum distance he would shoot. I believe "reality" will dictate the skill level of a responding individual and there will be no time to determine what that level is. That is why ALL of us should train to achieve a higher level of skill on a daily basis. Remember, there are four possible outcomes for you in an emergency: 1. Live Hero - one who has the skill to handle the problem and gets lucky! 2. Dead Hero - one who has the skill to handle the problem and is unlucky! 3. Dead Coward 4. Live Coward Those of us serious about self defense and why we carry our weapons will "default to the level of training which we have mastered". That is the reason all of us must continually train to better that 70% accuracy of which you speak, to better that 95% - !00% accuracy in hitting an 8 inch target. Are YOU continually training?

In a crowd it is not difficult for men to overpower a shooter, even at the expense of getting shot or cut themselves. Agreed, stopping the threat is the priority, with any means possible.

We have already argued the pastor's authority, and 2 A. I am hoping that you will objectively consider whether you want anyone who has passed a test to start shooting in church if a BG attacked in the church. It is of interest that some states have no shooting qualification requirement. I hope my above comments accurately convey my feelings regarding your concerns.

Regards,
Jerry

I've been taught there are four "survival principles". 1. Mindset 2. Tactics 3. Skill 4. Gear If you train to develop these four survival principles, you will enhance your ability to perform and survive. JMHO

dtweeks · July 4th, 2009, 12:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JerryM

I would like to limit this thread to the question of who would you want to be carrying in a crowded place where your wife or children were at the time.

me.

July 3rd, 2009, 11:36 PM	#14
Manan Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Hoosier Posts: 139	Honor the Wishes of the Elders of the Church A church is usually a group of like minded individuals worshiping their lord in the way they want. My particular denomination has issued a request that weapons of any kind not be possessed in any Church building. I honor and submit to their guidance. I do not carry my weapon while in church. If I felt strong enough to go against the wishes of the governing church body I would find a different congregation to attend. One whose members or leadership felt the same way that I did. Again, I honor and submit my will to those of my religious leadership. __________________ NRA Member I carry a .45 because they don't make a .46 www.ShootersEar.com

July 4th, 2009, 12:04 AM	#17
JohnK87 Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Hastings, MN Posts: 178	There is very little you can do in training or practice to prepare for the shock, adrenaline dump, and confusion of an active shooter scenario that starts without warning. Accuracy against paper at a range has little to do with it. __________________ If you are a warrior who is legally authorized to carry a weapon and you step outside without that weapon, then you become a sheep, pretending that the bad man will not come today. No one can be "on" 24/7, but if you walk outside without it, just take a deep breath, and say this to yourself..."Baa."

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