Really Want Unlimited CCW in Church? - Page 6

youngda9 · July 4th, 2009, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by United93

JerryM, once again you feel the need to show your opposition to the RKBA. It is getting a little old. Your present position is such an absurd one that I am led to the conclusion that you are simply posting such things to aggravate the ones among us who are pro-CCW.

Me feels the same way 100%, cuz anything over 100% is just a lie.

Happy INDEPENDENCE DAY. A right not exercized will be a right lost.

Dakota97 · July 5th, 2009, 12:39 AM

JerryM,

I have read your original post and given it some thought. I would agree that a crowded chuch would be very difficult to fire a weapon in self defense without the possibility of hitting an innocent person. Having said that, what would be the likely situation when a concealed carrier would use his/her weapon? If that situation occurs, some idiot is probably already shooting innocent people and will likely continue to do so until his is stopped in some manner, whether that be by the people rushing the shooter under fire ( we have seen that doesn't happen very often during shootings in public places), or someone who is armed stopping the threat by shooting him/her.

While the church is crowded and presents possilble added risks of bystanders being hit, I submit that there are few places where we could defend ourselves without that risk. Even shooting at someone in a large open parking area presents that risk to some degree as we cannot possibly know if the bullet fired will continue on to hit someone that we do not see. Defensive shooting in a mall has similar risks, as we may not have anyone in our line of sight behind the bad guy, but what about the people inside the stores who are out of our sight but who may be in our line of fire? Drywall and glass in mall stores will likely not stop the projectile. Crowded restaurants present the same problem as a church. If we are to take the approach of doing nothing in a church, then we might as well all just quit carrying for self defense because we would have to take that same stance in any public place and maybe even in our homes if there are other family members in other parts of our home.

Personally, I feel that we should be able to carry in church wherever it is legal or where it is not forbidden by the church, and by forbidden by the church, I mean by a vote of the majority, not some pastor or deacon/elder who may be antigun. In those states that prohibit carrying in church, then we should abide by the law and work to get those laws changed. So in direct answer to your question, I do support carry in church for those who are licensed to do so and where legal.

I also agree that training is important, but do not agree with the post that says someone must fire 300 or more rounds a month in order to carry. What's next, the weapon they use must cost at least $____ ?

As for LEO's, some are good shots and some are not, same as civililans. I shoot regularly with some LEO's and I shoot better than some of them while some of them make my groups look as if I were shooting for the first time in comparison to their groups!! So just hiring any off duty LEO may not be the answer.

Tiny85 · July 5th, 2009, 01:52 AM

IMHO Concealed is concealed. No one at church will ever know I have a gun unless I'm forced to use it and in that case me having a gun wouldn't be a bad thing.

Also if I were a member of your church and an active shooter came in I figure that I would be in a much better position to do something then you would as you would most likely be on floor bleeding to death. Correct me if I'm wrong but if both people who carry are right near the door wouldn't you also be the first ones shot?

Jerry if you don't support RKBA what are you even doing here?

JerryM · July 5th, 2009, 02:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiny85

IMHO Concealed is concealed. No one at church will ever know I have a gun unless I'm forced to use it and in that case me having a gun wouldn't be a bad thing.

Also if I were a member of your church and an active shooter came in I figure that I would be in a much better position to do something then you would as you would most likely be on floor bleeding to death. Correct me if I'm wrong but if both people who carry are right near the door wouldn't you also be the first ones shot?

Jerry if you don't support RKBA what are you even doing here?

Where do you get the idea that I am not for RKBA? But that right is not without limitations. In fact I do not know of any amendment that is absolute and without restrictions.
I would not want the right to carry to trump my right as a property owner to dictate what could be done or not on my property, and especially in my home.

Some people have an "in your face" attitude and look for trouble to "support our rights." Such attitudes are immature and do more harm than good.

Private property rights are as important as gun rights.

I suspect that I was fighting for RKBA before you were born. But is not without limitations. I also am sure that I have carried legally long before some of you were out of jr high school. You speak of what you know not. That is OK.

Regards,
Jerry

Tiny85 · July 5th, 2009, 02:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JerryM

Where do you get the idea that I am not for RKBA? But that right is not without limitations. In fact I do not know of any amendment that is absolute and without restrictions.
I would not want the right to carry to trump my right as a property owner to dictate what could be done or not on my property, and especially in my home.

Some people have an "in your face" attitude and look for trouble to "support our rights." Such attitudes are immature and do more harm than good.

Private property rights are as important as gun rights.

I suspect that I was fighting for RKBA before you were born. But is not without limitations. I also am sure that I have carried legally long before some of you were out of jr high school. You speak of what you know not. That is OK.

Regards,
Jerry

I got the impression you weren't fully on board with RKBA by your statement

"No, I do not support unlimited RKBA, and do support that a church, among other organizations, can determine whether or not carrying a gun in the church is permitted."

not sure what your referencing to as in your face from my post since concealed is CONCEALED. something no one can see can hardly be "in your face"

Your assumptions that you have any idea what I know or don't know is speaking of what you know not. In regards to how long you have been doing this or how long you have been carrying is of little concequence.

Remember age doesn't guarantee wisdom just wrinkles to assume otherwise is your own folly.

Regards
Tiny85

Tiny85 · July 5th, 2009, 02:52 AM

Also want to point out that we aren't talking about your rights to dictate what happens on your private property. You are free to be as restrictive or open with your property thats up to you.

However the church isn't your private property it belongs to the congregation there fore any decisions in regards to carry should be left to the entire congregation to either allow CCW or not allow it. But unless your planning on hiring security and installing metal detectors get used to the idea that you can't really do much to stop anyone from bringing a firearm in if they want to.

GBS · July 5th, 2009, 03:19 AM

The crazed gunman seems to be getting more respect than the GG.

If one were to summarize the discussion so far:
The unknown assailant entered the church with his weapon drawn, while the untrained ccw holder fired wildly into the crowd.

Give us a little more credit...

Tiny85 · July 5th, 2009, 03:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GBS

The crazed gunman seems to be getting more respect than the GG.

If one were to summarize the discussion so far:
The unknown assailant entered the church with his weapon drawn, while the untrained ccw holder fired wildly into the crowd.

Give us a little more credit...

glad someone pointed that out. I had ignored that thought all together.

TucAzRider · July 5th, 2009, 03:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GBS

The crazed gunman seems to be getting more respect than the GG.

If one were to summarize the discussion so far:
The unknown assailant entered the church with his weapon drawn, while the untrained ccw holder fired wildly into the crowd.

Give us a little more credit...

Ha Ha Ha... Sounds like something you could hear on CNN,..

gvaldeg1 · July 5th, 2009, 03:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TucAzRider

Jerry,.. Your putting the horse on life-support just to kick it,.. I'm sure I don't stand alone when I say this topic is getting old already.. We all understand you have your oppinion and we do to,.. Let it go,.. Let it go,..

I agree totally! Besides...if you're carrying correctly, no one will know that you have it except yourself. End of subject!

July 5th, 2009, 12:39 AM	#52
Dakota97 Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Alabama Posts: 292	JerryM, I have read your original post and given it some thought. I would agree that a crowded chuch would be very difficult to fire a weapon in self defense without the possibility of hitting an innocent person. Having said that, what would be the likely situation when a concealed carrier would use his/her weapon? If that situation occurs, some idiot is probably already shooting innocent people and will likely continue to do so until his is stopped in some manner, whether that be by the people rushing the shooter under fire ( we have seen that doesn't happen very often during shootings in public places), or someone who is armed stopping the threat by shooting him/her. While the church is crowded and presents possilble added risks of bystanders being hit, I submit that there are few places where we could defend ourselves without that risk. Even shooting at someone in a large open parking area presents that risk to some degree as we cannot possibly know if the bullet fired will continue on to hit someone that we do not see. Defensive shooting in a mall has similar risks, as we may not have anyone in our line of sight behind the bad guy, but what about the people inside the stores who are out of our sight but who may be in our line of fire? Drywall and glass in mall stores will likely not stop the projectile. Crowded restaurants present the same problem as a church. If we are to take the approach of doing nothing in a church, then we might as well all just quit carrying for self defense because we would have to take that same stance in any public place and maybe even in our homes if there are other family members in other parts of our home. Personally, I feel that we should be able to carry in church wherever it is legal or where it is not forbidden by the church, and by forbidden by the church, I mean by a vote of the majority, not some pastor or deacon/elder who may be antigun. In those states that prohibit carrying in church, then we should abide by the law and work to get those laws changed. So in direct answer to your question, I do support carry in church for those who are licensed to do so and where legal. I also agree that training is important, but do not agree with the post that says someone must fire 300 or more rounds a month in order to carry. What's next, the weapon they use must cost at least $____ ? As for LEO's, some are good shots and some are not, same as civililans. I shoot regularly with some LEO's and I shoot better than some of them while some of them make my groups look as if I were shooting for the first time in comparison to their groups!! So just hiring any off duty LEO may not be the answer. __________________ NRA life member.

July 5th, 2009, 01:52 AM	#53
Tiny85 Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Maine Posts: 142	IMHO Concealed is concealed. No one at church will ever know I have a gun unless I'm forced to use it and in that case me having a gun wouldn't be a bad thing. Also if I were a member of your church and an active shooter came in I figure that I would be in a much better position to do something then you would as you would most likely be on floor bleeding to death. Correct me if I'm wrong but if both people who carry are right near the door wouldn't you also be the first ones shot? Jerry if you don't support RKBA what are you even doing here? __________________ There's nothing wrong with shooting so long as the right people get shot. -- Dirty Harry Calahan

July 5th, 2009, 02:52 AM	#56
Tiny85 Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Maine Posts: 142	Also want to point out that we aren't talking about your rights to dictate what happens on your private property. You are free to be as restrictive or open with your property thats up to you. However the church isn't your private property it belongs to the congregation there fore any decisions in regards to carry should be left to the entire congregation to either allow CCW or not allow it. But unless your planning on hiring security and installing metal detectors get used to the idea that you can't really do much to stop anyone from bringing a firearm in if they want to. __________________ There's nothing wrong with shooting so long as the right people get shot. -- Dirty Harry Calahan

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July 5th, 2009, 03:19 AM	#57
GBS Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Central California Posts: 468	The crazed gunman seems to be getting more respect than the GG. If one were to summarize the discussion so far: The unknown assailant entered the church with his weapon drawn, while the untrained ccw holder fired wildly into the crowd. Give us a little more credit...