TravisABQ

Jerry, the only person carrying a gun that you seem to want to be unencumbered by your arbitrary "limitatitions" is the violent lunatic that you really don't believe will ever darken your church.

You think that your property rights trump my right to defend myself or my family? You can stick a defenseless victims sign on the outside of "your" church too. I'll avoid it like I avoid any other unsavory place.

So put up a sign Jerry. Tell your congregants that God expects them to defend themselves and their families... just not there.

There's limitations you know.

Chunkychuck

I know that there are other aspects of a plan, but I would like to limit this thread to the question of who would you want to be carrying in a crowded place where your wife or children were at the time.

Jerry, since you asked our responses to be limited to the above question, I would say "anyone who has met the qualifications that their particular state requires." However, since the premise of your question is based on a church scenario, they are a few things I would like to add. As a pastor, I have recently purchased my first handgun. I plan to obtain my CCP. Will I carry at my church at that point? I will if I feel I can at all times keep the weapon concealed (I don't wear a jacket and frequently move back and forth from the platform to seating area). If I choose to carry I will let my leadership (3) know but that is it. If not, then I will be like all the other sheep out there, dependent on someone else who may be carrying. Have people carried in my services. I don't know. That is the way it should be as I understand CC. We are in that 50-75 range in attendance so I have an idea as to who might have in the past or who might in the future but no concrete knowledge. Since our church has no official policy, I'm not going to create a debate that might distract from what our real purpose for being at church is. I won't suppress the debate if it is brought up, but I'm not going to start the debate. Should an incident occur, I would hope that anyone who is carrying would act responsibly and do their best to protect innocents. I am not naive enough though to think that innocents would not possibly be wounded or killed. I would just have to trust in God's providence for that protection.

ccw9mm

And yet, the limitation you're speaking of is absolute: that some shall be forced to have zero ability to defend themselves in a given place based on an arbitrary training standard that will have little bearing on one's actual ability when the scat hits the whirligig.

Property rights didn't come into the discussion as counterbalance until now. Perhaps that's because it was irrelevant to the training limitations sought.

The vast majority of statements by folks in this thread are questioning the hubris that justifies arbitrary training and effectiveness standards before someone will be allowed to defend themselves or their families. I submit we know hubris when it slaps folks in the forehead.

The world is replete with examples of the "momma bear" who moved extraordinary weights to get to her child, or defenders who defeated extraordinary odds ... most who were no better trained than the poor sod next door.

(Recall the "momma bear" in Portland, Oregon, a year or so ago who took the hammer from the murderer sent to erase her life. She ended up taking the would-be murderer's hammer and removed him from this world. The refreshing call to the coroner was, instead, to clean up the mess he made on her floor. Now, that's a statement of moral superiority and desire to defend, if ever there was one.)

RKBA, but with limitations, hm? The only real limitation you've mentioned is to disallow defensive tools and ability in the hands of people not meeting arbitrary standards of competency as evidenced by training. Short of that, such people would be stripped of their tools and ability to defend. By judgment of people such as you, Bob the flapjack joint owner, the manager of the local record shop, the government hack in charge of Federal Civilian Training Standards Of Defensive Competency. Hm.

Here's a question that can't be avoided: By what standard would the judgment be made as to who shall live and who shall die? 'Cause, that's what it comes down to, should a situation occur. Be specific. How can it be possible that anyone other than the "momma bear" in the situation can be a better judge?

If even 1/1000th of 1% of defensive shootings could be identified in which someone "sprayed and prayed" only to end up wiping out one or more innocents, then we'd truly have something to discuss. Until that day (which I suspect will never occur), this discussion is beneath our collective intelligence to suggest that upstanding citizens in dire situations won't be the best judges of their ability to defend. Give me the motivated and pressured judgment of a "momma bear" defending her children every day of the week, over that of a paper pusher in the capitol. My family, my children and those of my neighbors and extended "family" ... absolutely.

__________________
Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
Thoughts: Justifiable self defense.
Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
Deal with evil through strength. Affirm the good in Man through trust.
NRA. GOA. OFF.

Stormtruck2

[QUOTE=archer51;1210595]If your referring to Suzanna Gratia Hupp, she was not a CCW permitted person. At the time of the Luby massacre CC was not legal in TX. Her testimony was in part responsible for TX adopting CC.[/QUOTE:

Yes that is who I was speaking of. I know her weapon was in the car due to current law. I thought she was CCW'ed. My mistake, I appreciate your setting me straight. I hate it when I "missed it by that much- Maxwell Smart". My point though I think is strengthened by the correction. Some lives could have be saved had she had her weapon on her at the time.
As far as accuracy, how many churches have sanctuary's more than 25 yards long or wide? I don't attend the Vatican, or St Peters in New York City. There are some I'm sure but most are smaller. In Iowa we have to qualify at 25 yards, shooting a 70 or better on a small arms slow fire target.
Again thank you Archer 51 for the correction. I'll not make that mistake. I can be taught. It takes a few beating though.

__________________
When the chips are down, only hits count

Train as you fight, fight as you train.
Sig 220-45,Sig 225-9mm,Sig 226-.40,Bernelli M1,Bernelli Nova, SW 4340-.40
Glock 19,Llama Mini .45,U-238 WMD, (so the anti's say),and others

Saber

Based on your words in paragraph five, “So with such scenarios in mind” I conclude; the issue isn’t so much as using the gun but rather disarming simply because you are in a specific establishment. In the unlikelihood you are faced with an encounter while in church, the same safety rules apply whether you’re in a crowded parking lot, department store, etc.

Personally, I don't disclose or ask permission to carry when attending church services. This actually protects the church leadership and me. If they are made aware that I’m carrying and don’t restrict it, then they may be found negligent in the event of a discharge.
Regards,

__________________
“Monsters are real and so are ghosts. They live inside of us, and sometimes they win.”
~ Stephen King

Captain38

Even though any armed confrontations is PROBABLY going to be a WHOLE LOT CLOSER, that IS the kind of useful information churches need to have on hand.

As part of our security preparation, I've taken my laser range-finder into our sanctuary and determined that the maximum distance that a shot could be taken within its confines is 33 yards.

I feel making a handgun shot UNDER STRESS at THAT distance would be is doable, but difficult for most individuals.

Possible backdrops and angles REALLY need to be taken into consideration in advance every time you attend ANY function while carrying a firearm!

Stormtruck2

As a CCW'er we are expected to be and are held to a higher standard of responsibility. Part of that responsibility is to be competent with our weapon. You are correct that a 33 yard shot is very doable. And it is your responsibility as a LTC to know whether that is a consistently doable shot with the weapon you carry. Are you current with your carry weapon? When did you last shoot with it at that distance? Have you done jumping jacks or ran in place prior to shooting in order to induce some sort of stress level into your shot?
Your right that backdrops and angles need to be highly considered. That should be a strong part of your SA. I'm glad you ranged your sanctuary. Now you know that you need to shoot often at 40 yards so that a 33 yard shot is a snap. See siggy below.
With a security mind set like that, yours is the kind of church I'd like to attend. Jesus saves souls, CCW saves lives.

__________________
When the chips are down, only hits count

Train as you fight, fight as you train.
Sig 220-45,Sig 225-9mm,Sig 226-.40,Bernelli M1,Bernelli Nova, SW 4340-.40
Glock 19,Llama Mini .45,U-238 WMD, (so the anti's say),and others

John Wesley

I honestly do not understand the question. - 2 points I'd like to make.

I carried on Bourbon street in New Orleans once. It was a mass of people. I likely could not have safely gotten a shot off and would not have tried unless I was confident of my backstop. However, getting there and back.... Why eliminate the option entirely for the duration of your visit? Just because you are armed doesn't mean you have to do something foolish. Why disarm just because your options might be limited?

Second point. I don't mean to offend anyone here but would like to express my opinion on this.

As far as Church carry goes, I don't understand that either. In my opinion, Church leaders are just that. They are not infallible. I do not worship any "man" nor do I let any other man make any decisions for me.

I performed an extensive Biblical study of defense and arms. There is overwhelming evidence that bearing arms and specifically protecting your family is the proper thing to do. There is no Biblical support for banning arms in Church.

I feel like Church leaders are too much like politicians. They know better than the lowly congregation. Since there are so many denominations, all with differing opinions, obviously the leaders can't agree on what is right. I would suggest that everyone should check out the Bible for themselves and follow it. Blindly following Church leaders (or anyone else) is not wise in my opinion.

That being said, I do follow the law and respect others' wishes. Any Church making up non-Biblically based rules and trying to "play God" themselves is not for me.

FWIW - the small congregation that I attend does not ban firearms nor does it promote everyone bringing a gun to Church. This is a personal decision for each person to make - not the Church nor the government.

YMMV

Rotorblade

John bottom lined it right here..........well done!

miklcolt45

I pastor a church with a larger-than-average worship attendance.
I have spoken with other members of the congregation who also have or have had their CWFL. 1 is a now-retired Fed.

Most sanctuaries are terrible places to defend oneself. But, as has been pointed out, there are very few places that ARE good places to defend oneself and one's family.

The laws of my state allow concealed carry. IMO, the laws of God allow us to defend ourselves. While I pray that we will never have a need to defend ourselves or anyone else in our congregation, I chose to have that ability; and God gave me the right (and duly recognized by the COTUS/Bill of Rights).

I suspect we won't see a terrorist attack. We could certainly see Domestic Violence issues, as that seems prevalent everywhere these days. I am concerned about mentally unstable individuals. I can give you a list of several that we deal with in one way or another on a regular basis. One of them calls me 3-4 times a week, is off his meds, can be aggressive, hears voices and sees men in black and their helicopters.

The folks I am aware of who have gone through the effort to get their CWFLs are responsible, mature and thoughtful individuals who I trust. That's who gets my vote.

__________________
Mike

In God we trust. Everyone else,
keep your hands where I can see them.