What do you do for Post Draw Protection? - Page 3

TH48 · October 13th, 2009, 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 10thmtn

I have this printed in my wallet. I'm also a member of the Armed Citizens' Legal Defense Network.
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Dear Officer: If I have given this to you, I have unfortunately had to do what was necessary to defend innocent life. I am willing to sign a criminal complaint against the perpetrators(s). I will point out witnesses and evidence.

As you may have experienced yourself, this is a stressful and traumatic experience for me. Therefore, I wish to make no further statements until I have contacted an attorney and composed myself. I also do not consent to any searches. I will cooperate fully once I have consulted with an attorney and calmed down. As a lawfully armed citizen, I ask for the same courtesy that you would show a fellow officer who was involved in a similar situation.

Thank-you. Printed on_____________

Great idea!

MitchellCT · October 13th, 2009, 10:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 10thmtn

I have this printed in my wallet. I'm also a member of the Armed Citizens' Legal Defense Network.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Officer: If I have given this to you, I have unfortunately had to do what was necessary to defend innocent life. I am willing to sign a criminal complaint against the perpetrators(s). I will point out witnesses and evidence.

As you may have experienced yourself, this is a stressful and traumatic experience for me. Therefore, I wish to make no further statements until I have contacted an attorney and composed myself. I also do not consent to any searches. I will cooperate fully once I have consulted with an attorney and calmed down. As a lawfully armed citizen, I ask for the same courtesy that you would show a fellow officer who was involved in a similar situation.

Thank-you. Printed on_____________

As an attorney who is a member of the ACDL...

Burn that card.

Now.

10thmtn · October 13th, 2009, 10:54 PM

Would you care to elaborate?

It's nothing more than the advice Masaad Ayoob, and others, have given out...put onto a piece of paper.

Pilots use checklists, because humans forget things, especially while under stress.

I'd rather shut my mouth and hand this card (or read it) to the first responding officer. It will also remind me to point out evidence, invoke my rights, refuse to consent to a search, etc.

What's the issue?

Rob P. · October 13th, 2009, 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MitchellCT

As an attorney who is a member of the ACDL...

Burn that card.

Now.

+ whatever the cost of your defense is going to be.

Seriously, that card makes several statements you DO NOT want to admit to. Nor it is legally sufficient to constitute an assertion of your rights. With that card you are voluntarily giving a written confession to the police, written prior to your acts, which describes your actions in taking the life of a human being, which is legally admissible to prove your GUILT yet contains NO facts which would exonerate you or describe the circumstances which required that you act out of fear for your life, and finally, does not stop the state from continuing to question you.

Seriously stupid idea. Beyond that even. If you EVER have to act; sit down, shut up, and wait until you make bail to call your insurer to file a claim and request legal representation under your policy. The Public Defender can represent you through your bail hearing.

MitchellCT · October 13th, 2009, 11:17 PM

Do I care to elaborate...

No.

A Card In My Wallet
http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...76-post34.html

Dont' talk to cops - even if you are innocent - this is a must see...

Sage Advice/Never talk to the police :MERGED

Question for the Attorneys/Cops

Been done before, so no. I don't care to elaborate any further.

Oh, forget it.

Use the card. Sign a confession while you are at it...

Wait. That's what the card effectively is.

10thmtn · October 13th, 2009, 11:49 PM

Self defense is an affirmative legal defense. You are admitting you shot the guy, but arguing it was justified.

Masaad argues against the "just shut up" approach, because it makes you look guilty, and the police need something to go on. Witnesses and evidence vanish unless you point it out. The card reminds you to do that, among other things.

Oh...persons guilty of something don't volunteer to sign criminal complaints.

We'll just have to agree to disagree.

MitchellCT · October 14th, 2009, 01:01 AM

Thank you for the clarification on justification defenses.

I didn't take notes on that when I went to law school because I was too busy with being hung over for my 1st year Criminal Law class (Glenfiditch is my friend...)

...But that's alright, because I seem to have picked it up in practice over the past few years doing criminal defense work.

I like Ayoob's take on things, and executed correctly, it works; however, the card is a rather poor joke twisting his advice from simplicity to complexity.

If you've bothered to read the links I posted, you'd see the numerous reasons I have for disagreeing with the card.

You are entitled to have your opinion. You & others are also entitled to twist the advice Ayoob gives into complexity because you can't understand "Less Is More"

As you will...

Tom357 · October 14th, 2009, 01:45 AM

I have cards for two lawyers who have specific experience defending self-defense shooters, and who have the best records for successful defense in those situations. They also teach the review of pertinent laws in CC classes in my county.

EvilMonk · October 14th, 2009, 02:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MitchellCT

That's mighty helpful of you to make a statement to the police.

In the legal community, we call that a confession.

Lemme splain...

Anything you say can and will be used against you. That's not just after you are read your rights, but at any time.

You don't know what the police know. You don't know what they have been told.

You may be confirming their information (you were involved somehow, you were the guy with the gun...) or outright providing the information that they didn't have in terms of details of the incident.

If the cops are talking to you...you shouldn't be talking to them.

Yes, yes...I know...

It's a self defense incident, and you aren't a criminal...and my advice may be fine for the people I represent all the time...

Whatever.

If the cops are looking at you, it's not for any pleasant reason.

Whatever you have to say to them can be said once you either shut up & lawyer up from the outset or go with Ayoob's advice of the whole "Officer, I'm the one who called, thank G0D you are here...he dropped a knife over that way and you want to talk to the guy in the red leather mini skirt & high heels because he saw the whole thing, and I don't feel comfortable saying more till I talk to an attorney..."

Otherwise, you run the risk of rambling on and setting yourself up for more trouble than you can imagine.

Less people get in trouble for shutting up than they do for talking.

If you wait till you are under arrest to lawyer up, you waited to long.

Hey, I'm not gonna bash you for helping out with "advice".

Heck, I'm going to take it.

I just figured that an immediate "Reader's Digest" version might be in my best interest, but if you advise otherwise (unofficially, I know...), then I will take it into strong consideration.

Thanks for doing so!

10thmtn · October 14th, 2009, 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MitchellCT

Thank you for the clarification on justification defenses.

I didn't take notes on that when I went to law school because I was too busy with being hung over for my 1st year Criminal Law class (Glenfiditch is my friend...)

...But that's alright, because I seem to have picked it up in practice over the past few years doing criminal defense work.

I like Ayoob's take on things, and executed correctly, it works; however, the card is a rather poor joke twisting his advice from simplicity to complexity.

If you've bothered to read the links I posted, you'd see the numerous reasons I have for disagreeing with the card.

You are entitled to have your opinion. You & others are also entitled to twist the advice Ayoob gives into complexity because you can't understand "Less Is More"

As you will...

Wow. You manage to be sarcastic, condescending, and just plain rude in a rather short post. Glad you're not my lawyer.

To my mind, if you can remember Ayoob's advice while under the stress of a traumatic self-defense incident, then by all means, don't use the card or a checklist.

However, if you are human like most of us, it might be helpful to have something to jog your memory. The basic elements are:

1. He attacked me, I was in fear for my life
2. I will sign a criminal complaint
3. Evidence is over there
4. Witnesses are over there
5. I do not consent to any searches
6. I do not wish to say anything further without an attorney

That's a lot to remember while you are under stress, or maybe even wounded yourself.

You have to balance the risk of a rouge DA using this card against you, versus the risk of forgetting an element of this advice.

I see it as preparation, and any element of preparation can be used by a rouge DA against you as evidence of supposed "premeditation" - the fact that you carry a gun, a knife, use "killer" hollow points, attend classes to learn how to kill more efficiently, etc.

The fact that you print this card, put a date on it, and then do not use it for many many years (hopefully never) should help argue against "premeditation."

Folks can decide for themselves the risk/benefit ratio of this idea.

October 13th, 2009, 10:54 PM	#23
10thmtn Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: USA Posts: 664	Would you care to elaborate? It's nothing more than the advice Masaad Ayoob, and others, have given out...put onto a piece of paper. Pilots use checklists, because humans forget things, especially while under stress. I'd rather shut my mouth and hand this card (or read it) to the first responding officer. It will also remind me to point out evidence, invoke my rights, refuse to consent to a search, etc. What's the issue? __________________ The People ARE the Militia, and have a DUTY (not just a right) to be both armed and proficient in the use of said arms. Ex-Army officer; Hurricane Andrew Relief, FL, 1992; Operation Restore Hope, Somalia, 1993 NRA Life Member; Range Safety Officer Glock 26, CT Laserguard, Smartcarry

October 13th, 2009, 11:49 PM	#26
10thmtn Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: USA Posts: 664	Self defense is an affirmative legal defense. You are admitting you shot the guy, but arguing it was justified. Masaad argues against the "just shut up" approach, because it makes you look guilty, and the police need something to go on. Witnesses and evidence vanish unless you point it out. The card reminds you to do that, among other things. Oh...persons guilty of something don't volunteer to sign criminal complaints. We'll just have to agree to disagree. __________________ The People ARE the Militia, and have a DUTY (not just a right) to be both armed and proficient in the use of said arms. Ex-Army officer; Hurricane Andrew Relief, FL, 1992; Operation Restore Hope, Somalia, 1993 NRA Life Member; Range Safety Officer Glock 26, CT Laserguard, Smartcarry

October 14th, 2009, 01:45 AM	#28
Tom357 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Richmond VA Posts: 871	I have cards for two lawyers who have specific experience defending self-defense shooters, and who have the best records for successful defense in those situations. They also teach the review of pertinent laws in CC classes in my county. __________________ - Tom You have the power to donate life.

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October 13th, 2009, 11:17 PM	#25
MitchellCT Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Connecticut Posts: 1,009	Do I care to elaborate... No. A Card In My Wallet http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...76-post34.html Dont' talk to cops - even if you are innocent - this is a must see... Sage Advice/Never talk to the police :MERGED Question for the Attorneys/Cops Been done before, so no. I don't care to elaborate any further. Oh, forget it. Use the card. Sign a confession while you are at it... Wait. That's what the card effectively is.

October 14th, 2009, 01:01 AM	#27
MitchellCT Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Connecticut Posts: 1,009	Thank you for the clarification on justification defenses. I didn't take notes on that when I went to law school because I was too busy with being hung over for my 1st year Criminal Law class (Glenfiditch is my friend...) ...But that's alright, because I seem to have picked it up in practice over the past few years doing criminal defense work. I like Ayoob's take on things, and executed correctly, it works; however, the card is a rather poor joke twisting his advice from simplicity to complexity. If you've bothered to read the links I posted, you'd see the numerous reasons I have for disagreeing with the card. You are entitled to have your opinion. You & others are also entitled to twist the advice Ayoob gives into complexity because you can't understand "Less Is More" As you will...