MitchellCT

Me too.

I'd have fired you as a client, and I hate the paperwork involved in dumping someone who's uncooperative, self destructive and ignorant.



Your first mistake is assuming you have a clue regarding what you are talking about.

Moving on...

I'm not human. I'm an attorney. I thought we had established I was one of the undead...

However, in reference to other people who are merely human, and under a great deal of stress from the use of force incident, you may want to just assert your right to remain silent and your right to counsel, and not say or do anything that will negatively impact your case later.

I haven't had a case yet were I was called in and was glad my client spoke a single word.

I have had clients who thought they were helping themselves by making a statement to the police, including on case were my client was the victim, got a knife through his rib penetrating a lung, and after beating the hell out of the guy who attacked him, was questioned by the police after surgery while still loopy from the drugs...and was then charged with assault 1st.

What part of "ANYTHING YOU SAY CAN AND WILL BE USED AGAINST YOU" is too complex for you to understand?

If it's too much to think of under stress...

Remain silent.

YOU see them as rogue DA's.

THEY see you as a guy who shot someone, then ran your mouth to the police and/or gave them this card which said some BS about defending innocent life...and that doesn't match the story the police are telling them, or the details you talked about (you thought you didn't say anything...OOPS...)...

I just assisted in disposing of a case in which the very issues you raised were brought up by the police.

As part of disposing of it, I had a meeting with the DA that lasted about 1/2 hour were I explained the whole JHP issue, extra mags...yadda, yadda...2 of Ayoobs books were given to primary counsel and he argued points in them as well.

Problem solved. Case dismissed. Client should be getting the gun back as soon as logistics of trasfering a firearm from the PD out of state to my state. FFL's and shipping fees, ectra...

If he had that card, that would have probably thrown the DA a loop that the DA wouldn't have been comfortable with, and the outcome would have been worse.

You base your arguments on this point on...what?

I like Ayoob.

It's the people who read a few of his articles and think they are experts on self defense, the law, and how to handle the matter in court that I absolutely loathe.

Massad Ayoob has distilled this stuff down for people to be able to understand and use in BASIC format.

That means you do not get creative or complex with his instructions.

That means you are trained in legal first aid - not that you are a legal trauma surgon for what happens afterwards.

If you think you have such a great understanding of this stuff, great.

You do as you please...

But consider this for a moment: What if you don't know what you don't know.

10thmtn

What I DO know is that you cannot seem to discuss this issue without resorting to personal attacks and insults.

That tells me all I need to know about you. It also casts a shadow over everything you say.

Seems you cannot disagree without being disagreeable. Shame.

You don't know me, or my background. You are making assumptions.

Bye.

__________________
The People ARE the Militia, and have a DUTY (not just a right) to be both armed and proficient in the use of said arms.
Ex-Army officer; Hurricane Andrew Relief, FL, 1992; Operation Restore Hope, Somalia, 1993
NRA Life Member; Range Safety Officer
Glock 26, CT Laserguard, Smartcarry

1980Maico440

Thank you all for the opinions expressed here. If there was no point/counterpoint I doubt this forum would be of much use to me, regardless of the subject.
I would also thank MitchellCT and other legal minds for their numerous responses (see prior thread referals in particular) elsewhere which I find concise and detailed suffiently for me to form my own opinion on this matter. I am also reminded (and humbled) regarding the value of approaching legal questions by engaging with a person who is trained and actively experienced in the legal field.
This is a great forum and there are very good things here to consider. Thank you all.

__________________

I won't stop racing when I get old, I will get old when I stop racing

NRA Life, Master Mason, Jack-of-All-Trades (Master of None)

DaveH

INAL However, I with you on this.

BTW, if you missed it, read:

Defending the Self-Defense Case

It's by defense lawyers for defense lawyers and my attorney had missed it and thought it was good.

BTW, my lawyer also says no cards, no phone numbers on my person, etc -- and defiantly no retainers. I know his name. I can ask for the number, if/when I need it.

In his opinion, preparation could be used by the other side (primarily in a civil case) to support a predisposition (or something like that in legalese) to shoot someone.

Also, for those who want to say something at the scene, watch:

YouTube - Don't Talk to Cops, Part 1

and

YouTube - Don't Talk to Cops, Part 2

BTW2 -- Virginia's common law is good on the criminal court side of the issue -- few criminal case are brought and fewer lost, in a righteous shooting (e.g. true self defense w/o the shooter being part of the problem -- not defense of property), here in Virginia.

It's the cost of defending/winning any subsequent suits that we need to do something about.

BTW3 -- Last I looked, the firearms specific legal insurance only covered the criminal court defense.

Is that still true?

Can anyone give a reference to one that covers ant follow-on civil action?

How about, general legal coverage insurance that would include civil case of a shooting?

I know that my liability insurance excludes deliberate acts.

__________________
Μολὼν λαβέ

I'm just one root in a grassroots organization. No one should assume that I speak for the VCDL

BTW -- I am neither a lawyer, nor I do not play one on television or on the Internet. I hope no one assumes that I am giving legal advice

Veni, Vidi, Velcro

Harryball

MitchellCT thank you for the insight. I think I will follow your advise, and call my lawyer have a sit down and SHUT MY MOUTH......and listen.. Folks this isnt about feelings, its about saving your butt for a second time. If a lawyer in the criminal defense area is offering advise you may want to listen.. Opinions on this subject do not matter, only the facts of how the law will be interpreted.

__________________
Guns dont kill people...Government does

1980Maico440

excellent reference, I particularly liked:
"28. See Carswell v. Borough of Homestead, 381 F.3d 235, 243 (3rd Cir. 2004). The Carswell court also noted that “we must never allow the theoretical, sanitized world of our imagination to replace the dangerous and complex world that policemen face every day. What constitutes ‘reasonable’ action may seem quite different to someone facing a possible assailant than to someone analyzing the question at leisure.”"

__________________

I won't stop racing when I get old, I will get old when I stop racing

NRA Life, Master Mason, Jack-of-All-Trades (Master of None)

MitchellCT

Being polite is something I can do; I simply see no need to do it.

If I thought I had an opportunity to discuss this with you politely, I would.

You seem to be firmly convinced you know what you are talking about, yet don't understand the basic information you have - then you appear to be expanding on that unsound foundation...

Which leads to conversations like this:

Attorney - "So...after reviewing the police report and the statements you made - "

Client - "Statements? I didn't make any statements!?! I didn't tell the police anything!"

Attorney - "Well. That's not entirely accurate...lets go to the tape here..."

That I'm an arrogant, overbearing, insulting, uptight person who is firmly convinced I know this stuff better than you do?

You'd be right.

Good.

Don't mistake unwillingness for lack of capibility.

If your background does not involve a Juris Doctor degree, passing a bar exam and standing in front of a Judge with a hand raised taking an oath as a Commissioner of the Superion Court and Attorney (or similar)...

I really don't care what your background is.

If you've served in the military, thank you for your service.
If you are or have been a police officer, the same.

If you are someone who's shot someone, been through the whole process and came out cleared, congrats - but still, that is ONE experience.

Unless you have a formal education in criminal law, and practical experience in handling criminal law from the defense side, you really don't have any business having your own opinion on this subject, or thinking beyond the absolute basics of what you've been taught by someone who does.

(Did you come to your opinions because you took a class from someone beyond a basic CCW class...or were you just reading articles and the internet?)

You cannot anticipate what will happen which will lead you to hurt someone.

You can only plan for the aftermath in the most broad way possible.

Is it possible to craft a situation were your card is the best option - yes.

It's also possible that you can do like Joe Horn did at your house in South Boston and have the DA's office think you did the right thing, not charge you and send you on your way with a thank you note and replacement buckshot.

Likely? No.

Your emergency will probably not be the one you think it will be, and thus you must plan broadly, allowing for the most options as the situation evolves.

The card doesn't do that.

Shutting the mouth, or holding closely to Ayoob's advice does.

Random

It's easy enough to check out their website, but why don't you tell us a little about the Armed Citizens Legal Defense Network?

hayzor

I disagree with the “shut your mouth and never say a word to the cops” logic.
If you just shot someone, it had better be black & white or you are in for a long ride regardless of what you do. If it is black & white, the responding officers will be able to see it from the circumstances pretty quickly. To make a short statement confirming what they see will put them in your corner and probably save you some hassle and possible trip downtown. By simply claiming that you aren’t going to say anything until your lawyer shows up, tells that cop that you may have something to hide, and isn’t going to make the cop your friend. However, it is your right. Note: this may vary if you live in a gun hostile city or state. I live in AZ. A gun friendly state.

My CCW class was taught by a lawyer and he had the policy of never saying anything to the police. I recently took a defensive course and the legal/after shooting lectures were taught by a retired cop. The lectures from the retired LEO made more sense to me. The responding LEO’s are going to piece together pretty quickly what happened in most SD shootings. I don’t think you put yourself at more risk by some short statements describing what happened. This does not mean diarrhea of the mouth. Some control is needed. This should also be practiced to a degree for the SHTF situations.

If you are in a very gray shooting, then you will probably be better off w/ your mouth shut. This also means you need some additional training in shoot/no shoot scenarios to keep yourself out of them.

MitchellCT

You know it's grey...

HOW?

Everyone who pulls the trigger thinks they did the right thing at that moment. They are firmly convinced that it was the right thing to do...

What if that knife you thought you saw was really a cell phone?
What if you were front sight focused and didn't realize you shot as he turned putting a HST into the back of his head, and didn't see after he dropped, then told the police you shot him?

So.

Tell us.

HOW do you know if it's grey?