Seattle, WA: Unconstitutional Gun Ban

swatspyder · October 14th, 2009, 09:34 PM

http://www.cityofseattle.net/parks/P...earms_rule.pdf

Local News | Gun ban at Seattle parks facilities goes into effect | Seattle Times Newspaper

Quote:

Gun ban at Seattle parks facilities goes into effect

A ban on guns in certain Seattle park facilities, specifically to protect children, went into effect today, according to the mayor's office.

By Seattle Times staff

A ban on guns in certain Seattle park facilities, specifically to protect children, went into effect today, according to the mayor's office.

The move, which has drawn criticism including questions about its legality, affects hundreds of playgrounds, community centers, sports fields, swimming pools and water-play areas.

"When children and families visit a Seattle Parks and Recreation pool, playground, community center or other facility, they are entitled to a reasonable expectation of safety," Mayor Greg Nickels said in a news release. "It's common sense to prohibit guns in places where kids and young adults play and learn."

The gun ban, a new rule by Parks and Recreation, will be in effect only at facilities where signs have been posted, according to to the news release.

Community centers will get the first signs, followed by pools, popular play areas, and ballfields. The mayor's office said all facilities should have the signs by Dec. 1.

The first signs are expected to go up Friday at South Park Community Center, Garfield Community Center and Bitter Lake Community Center

If someone with a gun enters one of the designated facilities, he or she will be asked by parks employees or Seattle police officers to leave. If the person won't leave, he or she could be cited or arrested for criminal trespass, according to the mayor's office.

Nickels has argued that state law does not prohibit a property owner from imposing conditions on possessing firearms on his or her property.

The city's position, Nickels has said, is that a municipal property owner such as Seattle may impose limits on firearms as a condition of entry or use of particular facilities, particularly those where children and youths are likely to be.

State Attorney General Rob McKenna, however, has disagreed.

In a statement released in mid-September, he said he has a history of working to protect children's safety, but "as Mayor Nickels is aware, the Attorney General's Office issued an opinion in 2008, which found that state law pre-empts local authority to adopt firearms regulations, unless specifically authorized by law."

The opinion won't stop Nickels from invoking his ban, said Janelle Guthrie, with the AG's office. However, she said, the opinion holds the weight of law and could be used if the law is challenged, as gun advocates have vowed to do.

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The facilities that will be covered under the rule include:

• 26 community centers

• Four environmental learning centers

• 10 pools

• 30 wading pools and water play areas

• Two small-craft centers

• Two specialized facilities (tennis center, performing arts center)

• 139 playgrounds and play areas

• 213 ballfields

• Six late-night recreation sites

• Three teen-life centers

• 82 outdoor tennis and basketball courts

• Two skate parks

• Five golf courses

• Nine swimming beaches

Information from The Seattle Times archives is included in this report.

Mayor Nickels thinks that Seattle public parks and centers is private property...

Washington - Stories From The States - OpenCarry.org - Discussion Forum

Horsetrader · October 14th, 2009, 09:57 PM

A similar ban in all the cities and counties of Southern California has FOREVER PROVEN that gun bans in neighborhood parks lead to shootings, robberies, rapes, and 24/7 drug dealing in the parks so affected and so posted. Step #2 of this road to insanity is to close the parks at dark ( that is the Progessive/Liberal way to protect the innocent from the new owners of the park after dark).

Very effective crime fighting technique. ( now THAT is SARCASM !) So think of it this way: Seattle just gave its parks to the criminals. So be safe and stay home.

tabsr · October 14th, 2009, 10:05 PM

In this new world, the state government is below the liberal city mayors.

grady · October 14th, 2009, 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Horsetrader

A similar ban in all the cities and counties of Southern California has FOREVER PROVEN that gun bans in neighborhood parks lead to shootings, robberies, rapes, and 24/7 drug dealing in the parks so affected and so posted. Step #2 of this road to insanity is to close the parks at dark ( that is the Progessive/Liberal way to protect the innocent from the new owners of the park after dark).

Very effective crime fighting technique. ( now THAT is SARCASM !) So think of it this way: Seattle just gave its parks to the criminals. So be safe and stay home.

Yep. And don't forget the peaceful haven of Chicago.

12Rounds · October 14th, 2009, 10:39 PM

Whenever I hear "It's for the children", I know that I'm about to be B.S.'d in a major way.

jumpwing · October 14th, 2009, 10:50 PM

This won't last for three very good reasons:

1. The state AG has already addressed this issue and made it plain in no uncertain terms that it violates the Washington state constitution (state preemption)

2. Mayor "Nickelbag" is on his way out; he already lost the last election

3. The CCRKBA and SAF are both headquartered right here in Washington and have already warned they will challenge this in court (yes, Seattle will foot the bill for a losing case)

gunfan · October 14th, 2009, 10:55 PM

As a resident of Washington State, I may "test" this "ordnance." I need the money! (The settlement should be substantial!)

KimBobTex · October 14th, 2009, 10:56 PM

Wow! I'm impressed / proud of the Seatle-ites' response to this ban. Read the 50+ "reader's comments" at the bottom of the article link. Only 2 or 3 from the anti's, the rest from pro 2A's venting their disgust & outrage. Pleasantly surprised ... didn't expect this landslide from the Pacific NW area. WAY TO GO people of Seatle! Stay focused & vigilant!

Katana · October 14th, 2009, 11:16 PM

"Won't somebody please think about the children?!?"

I am, I'm thinking that if someone wants to hurt, kidnap, rape, or murder a child in my presence, I've got a better chance to help stop it than if I could only use my bare hands. No, I'm not a LEO anymore, but there's no way I could sit by idly if something of that nature was happening. I'm of the mindset that people should mind their own business and just be a good witness, but not when it comes to children.

I don't think I could live with myself if I did nothing in that situation, and I'd pray that if someone saw something like that happening to my own child, that they'd do the same thing.

I hate when people say it's for the kids, because invariably, it almost always ends up having the opposite effect on them.

I hope this is overturned as quickly as possible, "for the kids" of course.

ccw9mm · October 15th, 2009, 12:37 AM

Quote:

A ban on guns in certain Seattle park facilities, specifically to protect children, went into effect today, according to the mayor's office.

Can't see how "children" will be protected, when the adults charged with their protection would be forcibly disarmed. All this ordinance would do is to specifically disallow law-abiding, upstanding citizens from bringing along the means of protecting themselves on outings with their kids to the parks. Worse by far, they wouldn't be able to effectively protect their children, either, should the unthinkable occur.

All the while, of course, criminals would continue to carry weapons as they've always done, ignoring the signs.

The only "benefit" would be to reduce the likelihood of unintended discharges from upstanding citizens. Though, it would be interesting to know how many of these there have been in the past 20yrs. Quite possibly, in all of Seattle's parks and "children's" areas, it is zero or nearly so.

Thus, it's almost certain to be an utterly ineffective ordinance.

That is, if it sticks, which is unlikely, as others have noted.

Pretty little signs, though. I wonder how much those cost. To say nothing of any lawsuit(s) to erase the ordinance from the books, and from the officers' minds. S.A.F. is going to have a little talk with the A.G. this week, I'm sure. God help them if they cuff-and-stuff the wrong people, before it's been erased off the books, as it'll cost the city/county that much more to defend itself against something that apparently won't stand state Constitutional muster (given preemption). Am glad the Attorney General has already weighed-in on such silly attempts to ignore the will of the people of the state.

Isn't it amazing? Taking away the rights of the people can occur in a flash, yet halting the taking away of rights (such as restoring the right of the people to carry in Nat'l Parks, which is simply the act of refusing to continue criminalizing citizens) takes a year or more. It must be comforting to a politician to have such wonderfully pliable critical thinking skills.

October 14th, 2009, 10:05 PM	#3
tabsr Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Minnesota Posts: 277	State and Federal Law In this new world, the state government is below the liberal city mayors. __________________ "Politicians and Bureaucrats, depend very much on the complicity of their victims, and like criminals, are flummoxed when we don't play the victim role."

October 14th, 2009, 10:50 PM	#6
jumpwing Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Washington Posts: 375	This won't last for three very good reasons: 1. The state AG has already addressed this issue and made it plain in no uncertain terms that it violates the Washington state constitution (state preemption) 2. Mayor "Nickelbag" is on his way out; he already lost the last election 3. The CCRKBA and SAF are both headquartered right here in Washington and have already warned they will challenge this in court (yes, Seattle will foot the bill for a losing case) __________________ "The flock sleep peaceably in their pasture at night because Sheepdogs stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

October 14th, 2009, 11:16 PM	#9
Katana Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Clarksville,TN Posts: 487	"Won't somebody please think about the children?!?" I am, I'm thinking that if someone wants to hurt, kidnap, rape, or murder a child in my presence, I've got a better chance to help stop it than if I could only use my bare hands. No, I'm not a LEO anymore, but there's no way I could sit by idly if something of that nature was happening. I'm of the mindset that people should mind their own business and just be a good witness, but not when it comes to children. I don't think I could live with myself if I did nothing in that situation, and I'd pray that if someone saw something like that happening to my own child, that they'd do the same thing. I hate when people say it's for the kids, because invariably, it almost always ends up having the opposite effect on them. I hope this is overturned as quickly as possible, "for the kids" of course. __________________ "Stand your ground, don't fire unless fired upon, but if they mean to have a war, let it begin here!" - John Parker April 19th, 1775 Lexington, MA

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October 14th, 2009, 09:57 PM	#2
Horsetrader Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Up north Posts: 118	A similar ban in all the cities and counties of Southern California has FOREVER PROVEN that gun bans in neighborhood parks lead to shootings, robberies, rapes, and 24/7 drug dealing in the parks so affected and so posted. Step #2 of this road to insanity is to close the parks at dark ( that is the Progessive/Liberal way to protect the innocent from the new owners of the park after dark). Very effective crime fighting technique. ( now THAT is SARCASM !) So think of it this way: Seattle just gave its parks to the criminals. So be safe and stay home. __________________ "You may not know this yet, but there are things that gnaw on a man that are worse than dying." from the movie "Open Range". "Improvise, adapt, overcome."

October 14th, 2009, 10:39 PM	#5
12Rounds Ex Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: This Planet Rocks ! Posts: 160	Whenever I hear "It's for the children", I know that I'm about to be B.S.'d in a major way.

October 14th, 2009, 10:55 PM	#7
gunfan Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Vancouver, Washington Posts: 156	As a resident of Washington State, I may "test" this "ordnance." I need the money! (The settlement should be substantial!)

October 14th, 2009, 10:56 PM	#8
KimBobTex Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 32	Wow! I'm impressed / proud of the Seatle-ites' response to this ban. Read the 50+ "reader's comments" at the bottom of the article link. Only 2 or 3 from the anti's, the rest from pro 2A's venting their disgust & outrage. Pleasantly surprised ... didn't expect this landslide from the Pacific NW area. WAY TO GO people of Seatle! Stay focused & vigilant!