Gun Law Q&A With Off Duty LEO - Page 6

JRI · October 26th, 2009, 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SIXTO

I might, but google is better at it.

OK, I googled it.

Now that I have digested the information contained therein perhaps you might explain exactly how you feel it justifies a LEO making an arrest for a non-crime due to a lack of knowledge of what constitutes a violation.

My whole point was that the LEO has a duty to be educated in the law before he actually takes the action of making an arrest. The fact that the charge will be thrown out of court because the LEO made the arrest based on ignorance of the statute requirements does a dis-service to his profession, his department and the public.

I was taught that there is no such thing as unarresting someone. Once you make an arrest that person is "in the system" and despite the case being thrown out of court that person will always have an arrest record.

It has nothing to do with being pro or anti LEO. I just can't excuse arresting someone based on ignorance of what constitutes a violation of the statute. The LEO can always detain the subject while he researches the law before making the arrest.

Sgt Z Squad · October 27th, 2009, 12:35 AM

Please understand that you will get LEO's who never open their criminal code books after getting out of the academy. The state media always refers to LEO's as firearms expurts, well they are not. All I have to do is look across the locker room.

Should you be unjustly taken into custody because of incompetence or ignorance, I hope the supervisor has the gonads to correct the wrong, if not I guess you get the chance to own a piece of the city and the LEO's if you go the 1983 route.

SIXTO · October 27th, 2009, 01:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRI

OK, I googled it.

Now that I have digested the information contained therein perhaps you might explain exactly how you feel it justifies a LEO making an arrest for a non-crime due to a lack of knowledge of what constitutes a violation.

I never said that I felt that way.

But what I am saying is that they could. All they need is to be able to articulate reasonable suspicion; and that is very easy to do.

Deanimator · October 27th, 2009, 05:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sgt Z Squad

Please understand that you will get LEO's who never open their criminal code books after getting out of the academy. The state media always refers to LEO's as firearms expurts, well they are not. All I have to do is look across the locker room.

Should you be unjustly taken into custody because of incompetence or ignorance, I hope the supervisor has the gonads to correct the wrong, if not I guess you get the chance to own a piece of the city and the LEO's if you go the 1983 route.

And how exactly would he "correct that wrong"? As someone else noted, you can't go back in time and make the arrest never happen. You're stuck with that FOREVER. It may even affect your ability to buy firearms in the future. If I get delayed EVERY time I try to buy a gun, the person responsible is going to pay for that, any way I can make him, within the law.

False arrest isn't a mistake. It's a crime and a civil tort. I view it in exactly the same way I view somebody punching a cop because he got a speeding ticket. I guarantee you that you won't find many cops who'd either call THAT a "mistake" or excuse it because the assailant had a "bad day". I wouldn't expect any mercy if I took a swing at a cop who was lawfully doing his job. He shouldn't expect any if he falsely arrests me. CHOICES have consequences, even for cops.

Deanimator · October 27th, 2009, 06:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SIXTO

I never said that I felt that way.

But what I am saying is that they could. All they need is to be able to articulate reasonable suspicion; and that is very easy to do.

If the person isn't committing a crime, by definition, it's not "reasonable". If you get arrested for being a Mormon, it doesn't matter WHAT that cop "articulates" or how. No REASONABLE person could believe that that's a crime or ever COULD be.

Of course I think you need PC, not RAS to arrest somebody rather than detain them. Of course if you detain me for something that you should know is NOT a crime, you aren't going to have a good day either.

Having an Ohio CHL imposes upon me a LEGAL DUTY to know the applicable state laws. It's nothing short of insane for somebody to claim that a cop, whose JOB it is to enforce the law, should have a LESSER duty to know those same laws.

SIXTO · October 27th, 2009, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deanimator

If the person isn't committing a crime, by definition, it's not "reasonable". If you get arrested for being a Mormon, it doesn't matter WHAT that cop "articulates" or how. No REASONABLE person could believe that that's a crime or ever COULD be.

You are right, being a Mormon is not a crime. And neither is possessing the tools of a Mormon. Possessing the tools of a criminal is.
Here is my point; lets say I'm driving around the city in circles one July night. In my car is a duffel bag, a ski mask, latex gloves and my EDC is tucked in my favorite holster. Now, none of those items are illegal. I can go into any Walmart and buy those items and carry them around as I wish. But, put them together under the circumstances, it does create reasonable suspicion for an LEO to be able to detain for an investigation.

Of course I think you need PC, not RAS to arrest somebody rather than detain them. Of course if you detain me for something that you should know is NOT a crime, you aren't going to have a good day either.

Yes, RS is needed to detain, and PC is needed for an arrest. Do you know what the time limit is on a detention? Its longer than most sentences served on convictions in Ohio. Legal definition set aside, There really isn't much of a difference to the average Joe anymore.

Having an Ohio CHL imposes upon me a LEGAL DUTY to know the applicable state laws. It's nothing short of insane for somebody to claim that a cop, whose JOB it is to enforce the law, should have a LESSER duty to know those same laws.

You are right, nobody is arguing otherwise. However, what comes into play here is the difference in the words detain and arrest. Most people assume that if handcuffs are on, there is an arrest. That is not true. If an LEO see or finds a handgun in a car during a traffic stop, it is perfectly legal for him to detain to conduct a safe investigation. Like it or not, that fight has already been fought several times over. Every court in the land has said what I am saying now.

jwhite75 · October 27th, 2009, 11:07 AM

Hey sixto I tried to PM ya, but your box is full.

hogdaddy · October 27th, 2009, 11:27 AM

Yea MOST LEO'S who accually disarmes a law abiding CCer Is a ROOKIE or is
on a power trip ; )

SIXTO · October 27th, 2009, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hogdaddy

Yea MOST LEO'S who accually disarmes a law abiding CCer Is a ROOKIE or is
on a power trip ; )

Maybe, maybe not. Its of no matter, because it can be done. Its legal.

MattLarson · October 27th, 2009, 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BikerRN

TX-JB has it right.

There is no way a LEO can be expected to know every law he or she may enforce. To think otherwise is just plain silly. Let them charge you and spend the night in jail, if after asking for a supervisor they don't produce one, or the supervisor agrees with the arresting LEO's.

The place to argue an arrest is not on the side of the road. That is why we have courtrooms. You may win in court, but I guarantee you will lose on the side of the road.

Nobody can be expected to know every law on the books. If an arrest is made "in good faith" I do not see why the LEO should be personally liable. Start doing that and you will not get a LEO to make any arrest. It's easier to look the other way when that starts happening, and rightly so as far as I'm concerned. I'm not going to stick my paycheck and retirement out there for you to take a bite out of if I believe I have just cause for what I'm doing. If I know I don't have just cause, and do it anyway, then you deserve my paycheck, retirement and more to boot.

Biker

Here's the rub - what exactly is "Good Faith" in this situation?

Let's say, just for the sake of argument, that I am carrying a gun in my glove box in Florida, which is perfectly lawful under Florida law. I get pulled over and, I tell the officer there is a gun in the glovebox rather than going into the glovebox for my registration.

He pulls me out of the car and detains me so he can safely retrieve the vehicle registration and proof of insurance. Then, because he doesn't really understand the law, he tells me he is going to charge me with carrying a concealed weapon. I tell him that it is lawful under Florida Statute 790.25(5) to carry the firearm in the glovebox, and further that I have a copy of the statute available if he would like to read it.

He tells me I am wrong, and without making any effort to verify the information I have provided he arrests me and books me into jail.

Has he in fact acted in "Good Faith"?

Matt

October 27th, 2009, 12:35 AM	#52
Sgt Z Squad Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Connecticut Posts: 46	Please understand that you will get LEO's who never open their criminal code books after getting out of the academy. The state media always refers to LEO's as firearms expurts, well they are not. All I have to do is look across the locker room. Should you be unjustly taken into custody because of incompetence or ignorance, I hope the supervisor has the gonads to correct the wrong, if not I guess you get the chance to own a piece of the city and the LEO's if you go the 1983 route. __________________ Certifed Sig Classic Pistol Armorer USMC: 1975-1979 Lawdog: 1980 to ??? Soldier of Christ: January 2000 to Eternity A Sheepdog who has found the Shepherd Romans 5:8

October 27th, 2009, 11:07 AM	#57
jwhite75 VIP Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: West Virginia Posts: 2,306	Hey sixto I tried to PM ya, but your box is full. __________________ Friends don't let friends be MALL NINJAS. "May God have mercy on my enemies...because I won't." -Gen. George S. Patton.

October 27th, 2009, 11:27 AM	#58
hogdaddy Distinguished Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: N/E Florida Posts: 1,232	Yea MOST LEO'S who accually disarmes a law abiding CCer Is a ROOKIE or is on a power trip ; ) __________________ WE SAY GRACE & WE SAY MAM IF YA AINT IN THE SOUTH WE DON'T GIVE A DAM / WE CAN SKIN A BUCK & RUN A TROUTE LINE & A COUNTRY BOY CAN (SURVIVE)>>HANK JR.

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