Short Discussion with Ex-LEO - Page 7

basher052 · November 4th, 2009, 11:36 PM

Thought you guys might like this, if not

Quote:

During a 13-year span, the Baltimore County PD, which Aveni regards as one of the best trained in the country, achieved an average hit ratio of 64 percent in daylight shootings - not ideal, but clearly much better than commonly believed. In shootings that occurred in low-light surroundings, however, average hits dropped to 45 percent, a 30 percent decline. The data from Los Angeles County (LAC) reveals a somewhat comparable 24 percent decline.

"Until this research," Aveni says, "performance has never been accurately matched to lighting conditions," even though as many as 77 percent of police shootings are believed to occur under some degree of diminished lighting. Some departments tally "outdoor" versus "indoor" shootings, but most appear not to precisely differentiate between low-light and ample-light events, despite the preponderance of shootings during nighttime duty tours.

A multiple-officer shooting, in which more than one officer fires during a deadly force engagement, has an even greater influence on hit probability, Aveni discovered.

According to the LAC data, when only one officer fired during an encounter, the average hit ratio was 51 percent. When an additional officer got involved in shooting, hits dropped dramatically, to 23 percent. With more than 2 officers shooting, the average hit ratio was only 9 percent - "a whopping 82 percent declination," Aveni points out

Found it here in case you want to read more:

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http://www.policeone.com/columnists/force-science/articles/117909/

chad2000 · November 5th, 2009, 12:02 AM

Don't get me wrong on this. For 25 yrs. I worked with the D.C. Metro police , National Park Police and the Secret Service. I have the greatsest respect for all these officers. Can't say much for the Md state guiys. They are mainly used as revenue enhancers for the state of Md. In 25 yrs. I haven't seen much else they have accomplished. Just my opinion, of course, but compared to real LEOS , they don't!

KenInColo · November 5th, 2009, 01:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cycler

I can't remember if I mentioned it on this forum before but, I think that safe gun handling should be mandatory curriculum in elementary school.

We didn't quite have it in the elementary school curriculum but, 50 yrs ago, every year, Elks or Masons or some civic group, I don't remember which, paid for the NRA Hunter's Safety course for the entire 6th grade class!

LM2024 · November 5th, 2009, 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by unloved

Who said I don't practice? I said I've never been forced to take a state mandated class. I've had plenty of real training and I'm always seeking more. In fact, I'm doing another course this weekend. I took the course required for a Utah CFP voluntarily.

My point is, the state mandated courses are a joke. The mindset that makes a responsible armed citizen, or even just a responsible gun owner, cannot be taught. State mandated courses offer no benefit (other than a false sense of 'safety') to society. They are nothing more than stumbling blocks placed in the path of unarmed citizens who are trying to become armed citizens.

Again, plenty of states don't require any training. I'm sure there are lots and lots of licensees in PA that have never had any training at all. Those people are not shooting wildly and hitting innocents. Untrained, armed people just aren't a problem. Same situation in many states.

I don't understand how anyone who claims to be a supporter of the RKBA can favor requirements and restrictions (a.k.a.infringements) that don't do any good whatsoever, and are a substantial obstacle for many people.

It's one thing to be able to handle and use a firearm. But how about when and when not to use lethal force? Many firearms courses cover laws concerning self defense and shoot/no shoot situations.

Being able to carry a gun is not enough, a responsible carrier should know when and when not to use them. You know, like NOT firing their weapon at a fleeing suspect into a crowded shopping mall or something like that.

unloved · November 5th, 2009, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LM2024

It's one thing to be able to handle and use a firearm. But how about when and when not to use lethal force?

How about it? I managed to figure it out without state mandated training.

Many firearms courses cover laws concerning self defense and shoot/no shoot situations.

Quote:

Being able to carry a gun is not enough, a responsible carrier should know when and when not to use them. You know, like NOT firing their weapon at a fleeing suspect into a crowded shopping mall or something like that.

Once again, many states do not require any training. Works just fine. Responsible people act responsibly. Irresponsible people act irresponsibly. Just like they do in states that require training.

Mandated training accomplishes nothing. With the number of comments I see right here on DC.com about all the scary behavior people see in their mandated classes, scary behavior from people that pass the class, I'm surprised that so many people think otherwise.

LM2024 · November 5th, 2009, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by unloved

How about it? I managed to figure it out without state mandated training.

Maybe you figured it out on your own, but how about everyone else?

Quote:

Originally Posted by unloved

Once again, many states do not require any training. Works just fine. Responsible people act responsibly. Irresponsible people act irresponsibly. Just like they do in states that require training.

Is this merely your opinion or is this a fact? Forgive me if I don't take your word for it, but I'd like to see some links to prove your point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by unloved

Mandated training accomplishes nothing.

Again, please provide proof to back up your claim. Putting your statement in bold print and repeating it does not make it fact.

Quote:

Originally Posted by unloved

With the number of comments I see right here on DC.com about all the scary behavior people see in their mandated classes, scary behavior from people that pass the class, I'm surprised that so many people think otherwise.

While there is no guarantee that people will follow what they learned, in fact, some will chuck it as soon as they are done with the class, it's probably useful for many people who have had no experience with firearms.

Let me give you one example: Driver's Ed and driver's licensure exams. ALL of us have had to study and pass the drivers license exam, no matter what state you are in. Yet we see people driving carelessly all the time. But at least the general public has some idea about traffic law. So please don't say that mandatory driver's training accomplishes nothing. You wouldn't want some teenager on the road just because he knows how to drive a car, would you?

unloved · November 5th, 2009, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LM2024

Is this merely your opinion or is this a fact? Forgive me if I don't take your word for it, but I'd like to see some links to prove your point.

Here are a few.

VIDEO: OKC Pharmacist shoots, kills robber; charged with his murder - The KRMG Morning News Blog on krmg.com
"WE" all know better, don't we?
Concealed Carry Permit-Holder In Utah Accidentally Shoots, Kills Man-- Brady Campaign Blog

billfromtx · November 5th, 2009, 12:53 PM

In my experience..Maryland is one of the most anit-gun, anti legally armed citizen states in the country...Maryland CHL holders can carry in Texas but Texas CHL holders CANNOT carry in MD...

November 18, 2005
Maryland

Note: Effective immediately, Governor Perry has issued a proclamation that allows persons with concealed handgun licenses from Maryland to legally carry in Texas. Maryland license holders will be required to follow Texas law while carrying in this state. This proclamation is unilateral and is not a reciprocal agreement. Texas concealed handgun license holders will not be allowed to carry in Maryland.

Backnblack · November 5th, 2009, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by billfromtx

In my experience..Maryland is one of the most anit-gun, anti legally armed citizen states in the country...Maryland CHL holders can carry in Texas but Texas CHL holders CANNOT carry in MD...

November 18, 2005
Maryland

Note: Effective immediately, Governor Perry has issued a proclamation that allows persons with concealed handgun licenses from Maryland to legally carry in Texas. Maryland license holders will be required to follow Texas law while carrying in this state. This proclamation is unilateral and is not a reciprocal agreement. Texas concealed handgun license holders will not be allowed to carry in Maryland.

Maryland honors No-One!

F350 · November 5th, 2009, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rollo

While I wouldnt phrase it quite so combative I have to admit that untrained people with guns scare me.

Edit - I should rephrase that. Untrained people in PUBLIC PLACES with guns scare me.

And you can throw a fair percentage of LEO in that statement too; I give you the "only person professional enough to handle this GLOCK 40" DEA agent and the lady LEO who has a ND and puts a round next to a proned out perps head as just 2 caught on tape.

November 5th, 2009, 12:02 AM	#62
chad2000 Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Brooksville, Fl. Posts: 17	Ex-Leo Don't get me wrong on this. For 25 yrs. I worked with the D.C. Metro police , National Park Police and the Secret Service. I have the greatsest respect for all these officers. Can't say much for the Md state guiys. They are mainly used as revenue enhancers for the state of Md. In 25 yrs. I haven't seen much else they have accomplished. Just my opinion, of course, but compared to real LEOS , they don't!

November 5th, 2009, 12:53 PM	#68
billfromtx Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: South Texas Posts: 256	In my experience..Maryland is one of the most anit-gun, anti legally armed citizen states in the country...Maryland CHL holders can carry in Texas but Texas CHL holders CANNOT carry in MD... November 18, 2005 Maryland Note: Effective immediately, Governor Perry has issued a proclamation that allows persons with concealed handgun licenses from Maryland to legally carry in Texas. Maryland license holders will be required to follow Texas law while carrying in this state. This proclamation is unilateral and is not a reciprocal agreement. Texas concealed handgun license holders will not be allowed to carry in Maryland. __________________ USMC 1984-1992 To err is human. To forgive is divine. Neither of which is Marine Corps policy. "It's all about shot placement."- David (Slayer of Goliath)

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