No CC on Military Base; Example Fort Hood - Page 5

BudMan5 · November 6th, 2009, 10:08 PM

I just retired in 1999 so they haven't changed that much.

Jessica Lynch was captured on March 23, 2003. What are you referring to?
If you're talking about Hasan Akbar tossing grenades at Camp Pennsylvania then that happened in Kuwait and everybody was armed.

How about 1995 when that 82nd soldier opened fire on a PT run?

Things haven't changed, they only happen on military posts every ten years or so and never this bad. My point is that they happen every week in the civilian world. There have been more gunshot murders in Detroit this year then all of Afghanistan and Iraq combined (for the year).

I'll let it go. I stand chastized

You are missing my point. And yep, I am old. 20 years a cop and 16 years in the military. I did Nam before I was a cop and the rest of my military after i was a cop.

tiwee · November 6th, 2009, 10:14 PM

Budman5.

Crime including murder has been and continues to be present on military installations. I don't have stats, but I personally reviewed photos of a murder on a Marine Corps Air Station and sat on a court martial for a group breaking into exchange warehouses back in the eighties.

An Ensign who worked for me had a wife and new baby in family housing on base. A drunk Marine kicked open the front door of their house. Fortunately the Ensign was a big old boy and broke the Marine's arm somehow in the door. The Marine's CO didn't even give him brig time. After that, the Ensign told me the next to break in would not be needing to go to a court martial. I said go for it. No one ever did, so we never found out about that.

Second hand I knew of many other crimes. One task of the base CDO was to tour the brig at least once during the duty day. The Marine jailers would have each prisoner sound off as you approached their space. The information passed included the offense for which they were incarcerated. Many violent crimes were represented. So I am not so sure self defense should be curtailed on military installations.

Disarming military members on base relies on the same arguments that kept the general population from our 2A rights. Since most of those state bans have been overturned, the chicken little predictions of mayhem in the streets has not materialized. If fact, quite the opposite.

basher052 · November 6th, 2009, 10:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Holger

What do you mean? Most senior leaders, both enlisted and officer, were operators at some point. Are you implying somehow they know nothing about trigger-pulling?

Full disclosure: I'm an O-4 on track to one of those "golfers" as you put it.

Good luck on that handicap mister.....

tiwee · November 6th, 2009, 11:07 PM

Budman5

On a more personal note, I did my one tour in RVN in 1970. I, like all of us, had some non-optimum experiences stateside. We were all changed for the experience in country and after.

I have been able to go to the wall in DC. I have been able to see the traveling wall come to my town. I was asked to give the speech at the traveling wall. I gave a speech for all of us. I cried. Hundreds of people were there. Many cried. They flew in a cho cho whump whump for us. I cried again. The people and the country have tried to make amends for what happened to us. I accept the amends in the spirit they are offered.

The thing I appreciate the most is how the country is determined to not make the mistake again. Service people who serve today are welcomed and thanked. That means more to me as a way to address the mistakes of the past than anything else. Welcome home and thanks for your service. You did the best you could for your country and that is all anyone can ask.

I hitched my first chopper ride from an army slick in the delta. Might have been yours. I expected the door gunners and even the crew chiefs to be young, but when the pilots turned around I just about crapped. High school students. But we were all young. They probably didn't know whether to salute me or burp me. I waited for the Seawolves after that. No offense, but the pilots were a lot older.

Grant48 · November 7th, 2009, 12:14 AM

Just to clear up some misconceptions about the civilian police on military bases...

Quote:

Originally Posted by ECHOONE

I'm a vet, although it's been a long time,I always was under the assumption if an incident like this happened it was handled by military police! I didn't see a one! Why were civilian Police and Swat units on a military base? It was all military personnel,a military officer was the shooter on a military complex! Civilian Police don't even have juristicion or any authority on a military complex? Is that protocol that Civilian Police enter military bases in an event of a shooting?

They're referring to the Dept of the Army civilian police officers, assigned to the Fort Hood Police Department. They are not talking about the local city police or county sheriff.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Majorlk

I think you will find the situation was handled by the Ft. Hood Police Department. - a civilian contractor - who handles most of the on-post disturbances, rather than the MPs. The MPs handle base security, not routine law enforcement.

They are not "contractors". They are sworn federal law enforcement officers, and full-time employees of the Departments of the Army/Navy/Air Force, depending on the particular installation. Likewise, law enforcement and security duties at the Pentagon and other military installations in the National Capitol Region (northern Virginia and southern Maryland) are handled by the Pentagon Force Protection Agency (aka "Pentagon Police").

Quote:

Originally Posted by puffer

BTW, At many of our bases ( FT LEWIS included ) much of the "security ( gates, patrol ( some) ) is CIVILIAN.

They are not security guards. See below.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gibber

Yes, it is both shocking and cheezy to know that our own military no longer provide security for their bases [at least in some locations] and that the "rental guards" are often not armed.

They are not "rental guards".

The civilian police on military bases are career series 0083, which is the numerical designation for federal police officer. They are sworn federal law enforcement officers, trained at the FLETC in Glynco, GA, alongside LEO's from other federal agencies. They're far better trained for patrol and traditional "police work" than MP's.

skot · November 7th, 2009, 12:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BudMan5

I just retired in 1999 so they haven't changed that much.

Jessica Lynch was captured on March 23, 2003. What are you referring to?
If you're talking about Hasan Akbar tossing grenades at Camp Pennsylvania then that happened in Kuwait and everybody was armed.

How about 1995 when that 82nd soldier opened fire on a PT run?

Things haven't changed, they only happen on military posts every ten years or so and never this bad. My point is that they happen every week in the civilian world. There have been more gunshot murders in Detroit this year then all of Afghanistan and Iraq combined (for the year).

I'll let it go. I stand chastized

You are missing my point. And yep, I am old. 20 years a cop and 16 years in the military. I did Nam before I was a cop and the rest of my military after i was a cop.

I was refering to Akbar tossing grenades and opening fire on fellow soldiers because you said that "it hasn't happened before" and "the reason that it has happened is because military or naval personnel are bound together by discipline and singular concept of duty". It has. You even pointed out another example.

Anyway, not trying to argue with you. I just wanted to clarify that.

wjh2657 · November 7th, 2009, 02:17 AM

"In Vietnam you did your year and were done."

Not if you were a career Marine! Most of us did at least two tours. I ended up with 6 years "In country" and coming back in 1975 to take them off the rooftops. Each tour it was harder and harder to see just what we were accomplishing. Most of the Marine Corps was in Vietnam (no tours in Germany, Italy or Greece for us.) just as the main body of the Marine Corps is in the Middle East now. Unless you are in for just one hitch, multiple combat tours have always been pretty common for Marines. And yes, it does affect your outlook on things. It gets pretty hard to always see eye to eye with the politicians and their BS as to what is actually happening in the AOR.

To illustrate the inanity of the weapons control in the service, I spent several tours at Danang and each time we aere unarmed once in billets. You had to turn your weapon into the armory before retiring. If the first "incoming mail" got the armory NCO, we stayed unarmed through the whole attack! Danang got hit with sapper attacks nightly and we were unarmed!

I don't know how it is done in the combat zone now, but the no gun philosophy is and has always been part and parcel of the military.

DaveH · November 7th, 2009, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wjh2657

I don't know how it is done in the combat zone now, but the no gun philosophy is and has always been part and parcel of the military.

+ 1

Remember, with the exception of some (e.g., scout-snipers), even if armed you couldn't even return fire w/o permission first.

With both my son and my grandson now back in civilian life (one an LEO & the other a CO) I too am too removed as well as too old to know how it is done in the combat zone, now -- but the no gun philosophy (BS) is and has always been part and parcel of the current military nanny-ism to my knowledge, (experience and conversation with those who were there, officer & enlisted -- which indirectly covers five generations, WWI to the current sandbox).

As for opening it up to only senior NCOs & officers:

- this active shooter was one
- most of those shot would have still be unarmed
- when seconds counted the first very courageous and very effective armed responder was only an unacceptable 13 dead & 30 wounded away.

As always YMMV, but IMHO this is unacceptable.

JerryM · November 7th, 2009, 10:41 AM

I am pretty much with BudMan5.

Personally I would not want everyone who wanted to carrying on a military base. While one can find instances of crime and murder on bases, they are basically the safest communities in the country.

While I do wish those of us who are retired and have CHL could at least bring weapons on a military base, I prefer the current regulations to an almost unlimited carry policy.

Regards,
Jerry

Gibber · November 7th, 2009, 10:54 AM

Having our military walk around on a base in condition "white" with a target on their back is, under the present day conditions, quite completely insane.

General Cone having announced to the world that we truly believe that we are safe on base without being armed has made a huge blunder.

November 6th, 2009, 10:08 PM	#41
BudMan5 New Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: north central Illinois Posts: 7	I just retired in 1999 so they haven't changed that much. Jessica Lynch was captured on March 23, 2003. What are you referring to? If you're talking about Hasan Akbar tossing grenades at Camp Pennsylvania then that happened in Kuwait and everybody was armed. How about 1995 when that 82nd soldier opened fire on a PT run? Things haven't changed, they only happen on military posts every ten years or so and never this bad. My point is that they happen every week in the civilian world. There have been more gunshot murders in Detroit this year then all of Afghanistan and Iraq combined (for the year). I'll let it go. I stand chastized You are missing my point. And yep, I am old. 20 years a cop and 16 years in the military. I did Nam before I was a cop and the rest of my military after i was a cop. __________________ Bud When the cute TV reporter asked the Texas Ranger why he shot the bank robber six times with his.45, he replied, ""Cause they don't make a .50"

November 6th, 2009, 10:14 PM	#42
tiwee Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Ozarks Posts: 1,021	Budman5. Crime including murder has been and continues to be present on military installations. I don't have stats, but I personally reviewed photos of a murder on a Marine Corps Air Station and sat on a court martial for a group breaking into exchange warehouses back in the eighties. An Ensign who worked for me had a wife and new baby in family housing on base. A drunk Marine kicked open the front door of their house. Fortunately the Ensign was a big old boy and broke the Marine's arm somehow in the door. The Marine's CO didn't even give him brig time. After that, the Ensign told me the next to break in would not be needing to go to a court martial. I said go for it. No one ever did, so we never found out about that. Second hand I knew of many other crimes. One task of the base CDO was to tour the brig at least once during the duty day. The Marine jailers would have each prisoner sound off as you approached their space. The information passed included the offense for which they were incarcerated. Many violent crimes were represented. So I am not so sure self defense should be curtailed on military installations. Disarming military members on base relies on the same arguments that kept the general population from our 2A rights. Since most of those state bans have been overturned, the chicken little predictions of mayhem in the streets has not materialized. If fact, quite the opposite. __________________ Amendment 2 advocate - Trying to explain the obvious to the oblivious.

November 6th, 2009, 11:07 PM	#44
tiwee Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Ozarks Posts: 1,021	Budman5 On a more personal note, I did my one tour in RVN in 1970. I, like all of us, had some non-optimum experiences stateside. We were all changed for the experience in country and after. I have been able to go to the wall in DC. I have been able to see the traveling wall come to my town. I was asked to give the speech at the traveling wall. I gave a speech for all of us. I cried. Hundreds of people were there. Many cried. They flew in a cho cho whump whump for us. I cried again. The people and the country have tried to make amends for what happened to us. I accept the amends in the spirit they are offered. The thing I appreciate the most is how the country is determined to not make the mistake again. Service people who serve today are welcomed and thanked. That means more to me as a way to address the mistakes of the past than anything else. Welcome home and thanks for your service. You did the best you could for your country and that is all anyone can ask. I hitched my first chopper ride from an army slick in the delta. Might have been yours. I expected the door gunners and even the crew chiefs to be young, but when the pilots turned around I just about crapped. High school students. But we were all young. They probably didn't know whether to salute me or burp me. I waited for the Seawolves after that. No offense, but the pilots were a lot older. __________________ Amendment 2 advocate - Trying to explain the obvious to the oblivious.

November 7th, 2009, 02:17 AM	#47
wjh2657 Senior Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Lafayette, Tennessee Posts: 544	"In Vietnam you did your year and were done." Not if you were a career Marine! Most of us did at least two tours. I ended up with 6 years "In country" and coming back in 1975 to take them off the rooftops. Each tour it was harder and harder to see just what we were accomplishing. Most of the Marine Corps was in Vietnam (no tours in Germany, Italy or Greece for us.) just as the main body of the Marine Corps is in the Middle East now. Unless you are in for just one hitch, multiple combat tours have always been pretty common for Marines. And yes, it does affect your outlook on things. It gets pretty hard to always see eye to eye with the politicians and their BS as to what is actually happening in the AOR. To illustrate the inanity of the weapons control in the service, I spent several tours at Danang and each time we aere unarmed once in billets. You had to turn your weapon into the armory before retiring. If the first "incoming mail" got the armory NCO, we stayed unarmed through the whole attack! Danang got hit with sapper attacks nightly and we were unarmed! I don't know how it is done in the combat zone now, but the no gun philosophy is and has always been part and parcel of the military. __________________ " A man has got to know his limitations!" Inspector Harry Callihan, SFPD

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November 7th, 2009, 10:41 AM	#49
JerryM Distinguished Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,694	I am pretty much with BudMan5. Personally I would not want everyone who wanted to carrying on a military base. While one can find instances of crime and murder on bases, they are basically the safest communities in the country. While I do wish those of us who are retired and have CHL could at least bring weapons on a military base, I prefer the current regulations to an almost unlimited carry policy. Regards, Jerry

November 7th, 2009, 10:54 AM	#50
Gibber Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: TN Posts: 315	Having our military walk around on a base in condition "white" with a target on their back is, under the present day conditions, quite completely insane. General Cone having announced to the world that we truly believe that we are safe on base without being armed has made a huge blunder.