Point Shooting Home Study Course. - Page 2

gunthorp · December 31st, 2007, 02:57 PM

Good lessons. Don't train your instincts out of yourself by putting too much emphasis on sights, breathing, stance, or other non-real world fight stopping skills. A study gave guns to total novices and trained officers and presented them with a sudden threat. Those who had never handled a gun reacted much, much faster with greater accuracy by using their instincs, crouching, and point shooting head shots. A lot of Fairbairn's ideas are still relevant.

Matthew Temkin · December 31st, 2007, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troy Price

Matthew,

I was looking for distances in the thread and all I could find were 8 yards, 0-6 yards, and 10 yards.

Do you have drills/techniques for farther out?

Thanks for all of the positive feedback.
While I have played with point shooting out to 20 yards I think that at distances greater than 10-15 yards one should transition to the sights.
Of course one can practice to see the maximum distance one can take this skill out to.

Matthew Temkin · December 31st, 2007, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gunthorp

Good lessons. Don't train your instincts out of yourself by putting too much emphasis on sights, breathing, stance, or other non-real world fight stopping skills. A study gave guns to total novices and trained officers and presented them with a sudden threat. Those who had never handled a gun reacted much, much faster with greater accuracy by using their instincs, crouching, and point shooting head shots. A lot of Fairbairn's ideas are still relevant.

Excellent points.
Much of the old knowledge is still of value today.

Troy Price · December 31st, 2007, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matthew Temkin

Thanks for all of the positive feedback.
While I have played with point shooting out to 20 yards I think that at distances greater than 10-15 yards one should transition to the sights.
Of course one can practice to see the maximum distance one can take this skill out to.

For years I have been a pure "front sight focus/flash front sight " shooter. A few years ago I realized that at close contact distances I didn't need to use my sights as much as I needed to be fast. I began a training regimen where I simply brought my gun in line with my sight line and engaged the target. While it isn't as surgical as "front sight focus" it is infinitely faster.

I have made this a regular part of my training plan. I have found that I get hits, of acceptable accuracy, out to 15 yards using this method but I prefer to use my sights after 10 yards because for me that is where the "speed versus accuracy trade-off" seems to merge.

QKShooter · December 31st, 2007, 08:45 PM

"A few years ago I realized that at close contact distances I didn't need to use my sights as much as I needed to be fast."
Now there is a forum member who is thinking Street Self-Defense.

sojourner · December 31st, 2007, 10:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troy Price

For years I have been a pure "front sight focus/flash front sight " shooter. A few years ago I realized that at close contact distances I didn't need to use my sights as much as I needed to be fast. I began a training regimen where I simply brought my gun in line with my sight line and engaged the target. While it isn't as surgical as "front sight focus" it is infinitely faster.

I have made this a regular part of my training plan. I have found that I get hits, of acceptable accuracy, out to 15 yards using this method but I prefer to use my sights after 10 yards because for me that is where the "speed versus accuracy trade-off" seems to merge.

I have not really ventured totally into "point" shooting as of now. I plan on sojourning into "point" shooting with some upcoming training I have scheduled. I train most every day (well, about 5 days a week at least 100 hits and at least 50 draw and fire (that can count toward the hits)) with a beamhit (laser training system) that has a target that is 4.25" diameter circle. Live fire is 1x every other weekend.

When you are talking about acceptable accuracy, what is your definition? I am interested in knowing if it falls inside or outside the 4.25" diamater circle.

Your answer will give me an idea if using the beamhit as-is would be a good venue for "point" shooting training. If not, I would think some custom type software/hardware system would be needed for laser training in this arena.

I am a tech-weenie code jockey/programmer and have the skills to put something like this together. At a minimum it would be a laptop w a webcam and running linux. Webcam would point at IDPA/torso target infront of a different colored wall. Custom software would be needed to analze the images processed by the webcam to determine when/where hits occurred (by the brief red beam on the static target).

It is definitely doable, but somewhat time consuming. I have responsibilities and other time commitments and am not interested in working on something that will not help me acquire/maintain self defense skills. On the other hand, if it would be useful, I really could open up my self defense training utilizing "point" shooting at a target larger than a 4.25" diameter circle.

Thanks for your input. Sorry for any amount of thread drift.

QKShooter · January 1st, 2008, 02:12 AM

Constructive, intelligent, & applicable minor thread drift always appreciated.

That sounds interesting.

Sticks · January 1st, 2008, 07:24 AM

Well, after I went out pricing ammo, ($10 at walmart) I decided to spend the $50 on a CO2 6mm BB replica semi auto that grip and size is close to mine, 600 glow in the dark BBs and 5 CO@ cartridges.

I made another IWB holster for it that puts it at the same position and cant, and practiced with that in the garage last night.

I shot well over 150 times on the same CO2 cartridge, and it is still going. This should get the muscle memory going well, break the recoil anticipation habit, and save me some $$$.

I plan on going to the local ultra book mart and getting the two books mentioned (Kill or Get Killed and Shooting to Live) and working on this for about 100 shots per night, then switch to my carry and work in the safety release and dry fire (snap cap). I wish I could say that I will do live ammo every other week, but I know that will be more likely 1x per month if I am lucky.

It may not be the real thing, but at least I am throwing something downrange where I can see where I hit and make adjustments, I am at home in a heated garage, and extremely low risk of damage to property/self.

Matthew Temkin · January 1st, 2008, 08:07 AM

First of all, Happy New Year to everyone.
Being married with kids my New Years Eve was quite tame.
As to accuracy....Fairbairn and Applegate wrote about a six inch group as the standard of acceptable accuracy for a beginner.
Cirillo mentioned groups about the size of a clenched fist.
This is a fine standard but one that can be improved upon with practice.
Then again, I have had students who,within minutes of training, could place a thumb size cluster of bullets into the target just as fast as they could pull the trigger.
One of my long term students calls this system, "Aimed fire accuracy with point shooting target focus and speed", which sums this method accuracy potential quite well.
Lastly, practicing with airguns, airsoft and Sims is just as helpful as shooting live ammo.

Sticks · January 1st, 2008, 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matthew Temkin

Lastly, practicing with airguns, airsoft and Sims is just as helpful as shooting live ammo.

Cool, at least I am doing something right.

Happy New Year to you and all as well. (just another day for me)

December 31st, 2007, 02:57 PM	#11
gunthorp Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Duluth MN Posts: 591	Good lessons. Don't train your instincts out of yourself by putting too much emphasis on sights, breathing, stance, or other non-real world fight stopping skills. A study gave guns to total novices and trained officers and presented them with a sudden threat. Those who had never handled a gun reacted much, much faster with greater accuracy by using their instincs, crouching, and point shooting head shots. A lot of Fairbairn's ideas are still relevant. __________________ Don't dither. The nick of time comes just before the moment lost.

December 31st, 2007, 08:45 PM	#15
QKShooter Assistant Administrator Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Runthegun, USA Posts: 18,759	*"A few years ago I realized that at close contact distances I didn't need to use my sights as much as I needed to be fast."* Now there is a forum member who is thinking Street Self-Defense. __________________ *Support Our Troops* How Very Fortunate You Are To Have Two Arms To Put Into A Ward 57 T-Shirt. DC MEMBERS ~ PLEASE BUY A WARD 57 SHIRT. Click Here.

January 1st, 2008, 02:12 AM	#17
QKShooter Assistant Administrator Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Runthegun, USA Posts: 18,759	Constructive, intelligent, & applicable minor thread drift always appreciated. That sounds interesting. __________________ *Support Our Troops* How Very Fortunate You Are To Have Two Arms To Put Into A Ward 57 T-Shirt. DC MEMBERS ~ PLEASE BUY A WARD 57 SHIRT. Click Here.

January 1st, 2008, 07:24 AM	#18
Sticks Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Colorado Posts: 760	Well, after I went out pricing ammo, ($10 at walmart) I decided to spend the $50 on a CO2 6mm BB replica semi auto that grip and size is close to mine, 600 glow in the dark BBs and 5 CO@ cartridges. I made another IWB holster for it that puts it at the same position and cant, and practiced with that in the garage last night. I shot well over 150 times on the same CO2 cartridge, and it is still going. This should get the muscle memory going well, break the recoil anticipation habit, and save me some $$$. I plan on going to the local ultra book mart and getting the two books mentioned (Kill or Get Killed and Shooting to Live) and working on this for about 100 shots per night, then switch to my carry and work in the safety release and dry fire (snap cap). I wish I could say that I will do live ammo every other week, but I know that will be more likely 1x per month if I am lucky. It may not be the real thing, but at least I am throwing something downrange where I can see where I hit and make adjustments, I am at home in a heated garage, and extremely low risk of damage to property/self. __________________ Sticks Curiosity was framed, poor judgment killed the cat 911 is just part of the procedure for filing paperwork

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January 1st, 2008, 08:07 AM	#19
Matthew Temkin Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: nyc Posts: 177	First of all, Happy New Year to everyone. Being married with kids my New Years Eve was quite tame. As to accuracy....Fairbairn and Applegate wrote about a six inch group as the standard of acceptable accuracy for a beginner. Cirillo mentioned groups about the size of a clenched fist. This is a fine standard but one that can be improved upon with practice. Then again, I have had students who,within minutes of training, could place a thumb size cluster of bullets into the target just as fast as they could pull the trigger. One of my long term students calls this system, "Aimed fire accuracy with point shooting target focus and speed", which sums this method accuracy potential quite well. Lastly, practicing with airguns, airsoft and Sims is just as helpful as shooting live ammo.