semperfi.45

A very real point.

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Luck may or may not be on your side.
But ability is 100% within your control.
Skilled at arms...or do you suck?

matiki

In the scenario addressed by the video, Knife + Gun = Both guys hurt...

If you think you're getting out of the circle of death uninjured, you're sorely mistaken.

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matiki

In protective services, we refer to the scenario addressed by the video as taking place in the circle of death. In the circle of death, the fastest, most simple method of defense is preferred by 9/10 protective services operators.

We call it the circle of death for a reason.

You can rely on your gun if you want. Certainly, it's important that you do whats most comfortable for you. But you can't on one hand say that you're about to be killed by a knife! Draw your gun! And on the other, say, Don't draw a knife! He's got a knife! I thought you were using your gun because the knife could kill you? Can't your knife kill them?

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KenpoTex

I think we're talking in circles here...

From your post on page 2:

I never advocated relying on any weapon in this scenario. Personally I feel that at this range, the best option is to have an empty-hand skillset that will allow you to survive the initial attack. Then, depending on what options present themselves first, you can either terminate the attack with empty hand strikes or break contact, create range, and deploy your weapon.

My question for you was regarding the portion of your post that I bolded. That if "you cannot rely on your gun inside the ring of death," why would you rely on a knife? The way I read your post, it seems that you are saying that the knife is a better choice than a gun in this particular situation. If that's what you were saying, I'm truly interested in hearing your reasons. If that's not what you were saying, then I guess I'm misinterpreting your post.

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If you carry in Condition 3, you have two empty chambers. One in the weapon...the other between your ears.

MOΛΩN ΛABÉ

Matt K.

matiki

I am absolutely, 100% saying that I prefer a knife or possibly open hand to a firearm inside 9 feet.

I can't think of even a single assassination attempt that was stopped by gunfire, and most attempts and successful assassinations don't even result in return fire.

Our EP details train for these scenarios all the time. The gun has never saved our principle or ourselves inside the circle of death during exercises. And that's knowing that a threat is coming.

Generally, I practice the teachings of Robert L. Oatman. He wrote a book called "The Art of Executive Protection", and he is the one who introduced me to the Secret Service idea of the Circle (or Ring) of Death.

I know my feelings on the matter are quite controversial in many circles, and I'm not trying to belittle anyone or say that anyone is wrong. Just sharing my beliefs and training with you all in case it can help you make an informed decision for yourselves.

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KenpoTex

Fair enough...

So, to get a little more specific...are you saying that faced with a scenario like the one in the video (attacker within 5-10 feet suddenly charges) that you're going to immediately draw your knife? If so, how do you buy yourself the time to deploy your knife and what are you doing to deal with the attacker's incoming weapon and his momentum? (let's assume a very aggressive attack. For example, the attack on Imelda Marcos seen here)

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If you carry in Condition 3, you have two empty chambers. One in the weapon...the other between your ears.

MOΛΩN ΛABÉ

Matt K.

matiki

If I can see a weapon, I'll draw my knife at that distance. Of course I'm not going to stand still, unless my principle/wife/child is behind me. H2H strategy is best discussed in the Dojo or Gymnasium IMHO but briefly, take the attacker off their original line, pay attention to the enemies knife but don't become fixated, and work the vitals and major muscle groups. The Marcos video is a great example because it's so slow. Most of the time everything is much faster. Due to the way his weapon is concealed, it's seen a mile away and obviously not coming out fast. I'd try to shoot if it was just me. With a principle/family I'd close the gap hopefully before he's completed his draw.

This is the pace I worry about: Reagan

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Sticks

And for those of us that do not have extensive or any training at all in H2H combat, meeting the threat with your own knife is not a good plan.

For me, after 15 years of Grocer retail work, it's safe to say I've been cut a few times so the thought of getting slashed does not bother me over much. I just need to find a Dr. with good stitching skills.

Open environment where I can see the guy acting like he was in the video, I am already increasing the distance and making ready for bad juju.

Surprise attack anywhere, be it in a crowd (Regan, Imelda), or in the open, I'm FUBAR and will do my best to immobilize the weapon arm and do my best to deploy or buy time for assistance/deploy. If that means I have to scratch, gouge, head butt...anything to stun the attacker then I do it.

Your average citizen does not have the time or opportunity to train extensively with multiple weapons. Partial training in more than one leads to indecision as to which one to use in a given situation. I'm not even a fan of different methods of CC for the same reason. Even with a BUG, are you going to remember you have it in a crisis?

The attacker is planning on no resistance on your part anyhow so engaging is better than nothing.

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Sticks

Curiosity was framed, poor judgment killed the cat

911 is just part of the procedure for filing paperwork

matiki

Agreed. If you are not completely comfortable with your options, then your options may cause you to delay your reaction for evaluation. Not good. My first M/A Instructor used to tell me, "Students are better off hermetically sealed in a ball until they've got at least five years of M/A experience. Until then, they're likely to make really bad choices using their limited skills".

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Sarge45

The Tueller Drill proved that an assailant armed with a knife at a distance of 21 feet from an officer with a holstered weapon could close that 21 feet and cut the officer before the officer could unholster and shoot the perp.

21 feet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tueller_Drill