Thumbs forward - why? - Page 5

Colin · January 16th, 2008, 11:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kazzaerexys

I have been trying both ways. I agree that the thumbs down position gives a stronger grip, but I am beginning to come to the conclusion that thumbs forward, along the frame, gives better left/right stability as well as speeding up my aim. I definitely have a tendency to jerk left on my trigger, and the result is much less noticable with thumbs forward (being a right-handed shooter).

As for aiming, if I practice draw and point, then look down along the sights to see how close I am to my intended aim, I do a much better job of pointing with the thumbs forward. Nothing that would matter at, say, four or five yards, but might be significant at seven to ten and beyond.

I would say just try out both. If you shoot better thumbs down, then shoot thumbs down.

I do the same with my trigger finger and also find it helps counter that effect.

Ride4TheBrand · January 17th, 2008, 12:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SIXTO

. Its for combat shooting, not for punching holes in paper.

There you go boys and girls. Do you carry for target shooting, or do you carry to defend your life or the lives of the ones you love?

When it really counts, what muscle memory do you hope to rely on??

bison · January 17th, 2008, 12:43 AM

I find my reasons for the thumb foward position is just as it been stated earlier,
to decrease left/right drift when shooting. I have experimented with the "stacked" grip on a revolver, and its going to take a little getting use to. I think the best part of the thumbs foward grip is that it's safer and easily tranferable to about any handgun one may use. K.I.S.S theory at its best!!!!
JMO!!!

Troy Price · January 17th, 2008, 07:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ride4TheBrand

There you go boys and girls. Do you carry for target shooting, or do you carry to defend your life or the lives of the ones you love?

When it really counts, what muscle memory do you hope to rely on??

You guys are killing me.

I said I was done.

OPFOR · January 17th, 2008, 08:05 AM

Troy,

I'm certainly not trying to drive you out of the conversation - I appreciate your input very much. I was just saying that this technique (as well as many, many others) derived from target shooting. That's only natural - people shoot a heck of a lot more paper than they do people, so that's where the majority of the experience lies.

When I grasp the stocks of my pistol for the draw, my strong thumb is down. I don't have a thumb safety requiring my thumb to be up (and never have had one, on a carry gun - I kept the safety off on my M9), so perhaps this is a part of it. When my support hand meets my strong hand, it is absolutely natural for the support thumb to rest on top of and "lock down" the strong hand thumb. It feels decidedly unnatural to put my thumbs high and "out" along the frame.

That being said, when I concentrate and assume a good "thumbs forward" grip, I am just as fast and accurate when shooting. In fact, it feels (I don't have a timer) like my shot-to-shot times may even be a little bit faster, and my accuracy may even be a little bit better. So, believe me, I don't discount the "thubs forward" grip in any way - it just isn't natural for me, so it takes a lot of deliberate action to grip that way. With enough practice, I'm sure I could make it natural, but that's a long way off at this point - I have thousands and thousands of presentations (not to mention the "natural" lay of my hands/fingers) to overcome.

I'm sure it boils down to what folks grew up with, the size and shape of their hands, and what sort of pistol folks use. In the end, the "thumbs forward" is probably better for control and accuracy, but just how much better is certainly debatable. In point of fact, it probably won't make a heck of a lot of difference for us "average" shooters... If you're trying to squeeze that extra tenth of a second from your IPSC times, or knock the 10 ring out at 50 yards, then perhaps "thumbs forward" is the only way to go. For the rest of us, I think lots of practice in being consistant with our grip - whatever that grip may be, within reason - is much more important than the particular style of grip we employ.

Sticks · January 17th, 2008, 09:39 AM

Having no formal training in hand gun shooting (other than safety), I greatly appreciate any and all info that I can get to increase my accuracy & speed.

Is everything I read the be all and end all? No, I try it and if it works then I stick with it. If not, I go back to where I was before and keep moving forward.

Those that already have training, or a system that works for them, then there is no reason to change it. I think is good that some of you try it, but there is no reason to say that it is incorrect, it just does not work for you.

Troy Price · January 17th, 2008, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OPFOR

Troy,

I'm certainly not trying to drive you out of the conversation - I appreciate your input very much. I was just saying that this technique (as well as many, many others) derived from target shooting. That's only natural - people shoot a heck of a lot more paper than they do people, so that's where the majority of the experience lies.

I didn't think you were.

The thumb forward of the firing hand didn't come from target shooting. The M1911 was fielded in combat long before it was allowed in National Match. The mechanics of the gun left you no choice but to let the thumb of the firing hand forward. Col Cooper just took it further when he started advocating the two-hand grip.

One of the problems with the internet is you don't have the ability to meet face to face and demonstrate techniques to show the pros and cons of each. I have seen instances where people were attempting to argue the same point but couldn't express themself in the virtual world.

I explained my perspective and just didn't want to argue with anyone.

With many folks that have little or no formal training and then spend years building a conditioned response, they are slow to change if at all. I don't have a problem with this but if you are training with me I'd like you try it.

I was working with a student a few months ago who has shot nothing but Weaver for the last 30 years. While he made an attempt to try what we were teaching he kept reverting back to Weaver or what I like to call the "Isoco-Weaver". Instead of continuing to try to "fix" anything we decided to capitalize on what he was already doing and focus on fighting with the gun. You can't change 30 years of a conditioned response in one weekend.

It took me 3 years to change from shooting "thumb over" Weaver to the way I shoot now.

The reasons I changed? Speed, support, mechanics, etc. blah blah blah.

To change, folks need to be willing to change or accept change rather than attepting to validate what they have been doing for the last however many years.

I don't care how you hold the gun as long as you can instantly incapacitate the target from any range out to about 50 yards. There may come a time when that is the distance you need to fight from.

And before any of you start jamming on me about the most common distances of gunfights I want you to research a few things - Tyler, Texas; Salt Lake City, and Colorado Springs.

FRT007 · January 17th, 2008, 11:10 AM

Wow. I 'triggered" quite a few responses. Thanks to all who replied.

Tony Siciliano · January 17th, 2008, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troy Price

You guys are killing me.
I said I was done.

LOL. So, I guess I shouldn't bring up the "muscle memory" thing, then huh?

Troy Price · January 17th, 2008, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tony Siciliano

LOL. So, I guess I shouldn't bring up the "muscle memory" thing, then huh?

January 17th, 2008, 08:05 AM	#45
OPFOR VIP Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Baghdad Posts: 2,418	Troy, I'm certainly not trying to drive you out of the conversation - I appreciate your input very much. I was just saying that this technique (as well as many, many others) derived from target shooting. That's only natural - people shoot a heck of a lot more paper than they do people, so that's where the majority of the experience lies. When I grasp the stocks of my pistol for the draw, my strong thumb is down. I don't have a thumb safety requiring my thumb to be up (and never have had one, on a carry gun - I kept the safety off on my M9), so perhaps this is a part of it. When my support hand meets my strong hand, it is absolutely natural for the support thumb to rest on top of and "lock down" the strong hand thumb. It feels decidedly unnatural to put my thumbs high and "out" along the frame. That being said, when I concentrate and assume a good "thumbs forward" grip, I am just as fast and accurate when shooting. In fact, it feels (I don't have a timer) like my shot-to-shot times may even be a little bit faster, and my accuracy may even be a little bit better. So, believe me, I don't discount the "thubs forward" grip in any way - it just isn't natural for me, so it takes a lot of deliberate action to grip that way. With enough practice, I'm sure I could make it natural, but that's a long way off at this point - I have thousands and thousands of presentations (not to mention the "natural" lay of my hands/fingers) to overcome. I'm sure it boils down to what folks grew up with, the size and shape of their hands, and what sort of pistol folks use. In the end, the "thumbs forward" is probably better for control and accuracy, but just how much better is certainly debatable. In point of fact, it probably won't make a heck of a lot of difference for us "average" shooters... If you're trying to squeeze that extra tenth of a second from your IPSC times, or knock the 10 ring out at 50 yards, then perhaps "thumbs forward" is the only way to go. For the rest of us, I think lots of practice in being consistant with our grip - whatever that grip may be, within reason - is much more important than the particular style of grip we employ. __________________ "It makes no difference what men think of war, said the judge. War endures. As well ask men what they think of stone. War was always here. Before man was, war waited for him. The ultimate trade awaiting its ultimate practitioner. That is the way it was and will be. That way and not some other way."

January 17th, 2008, 09:39 AM	#46
Sticks Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Colorado Posts: 908	Having no formal training in hand gun shooting (other than safety), I greatly appreciate any and all info that I can get to increase my accuracy & speed. Is everything I read the be all and end all? No, I try it and if it works then I stick with it. If not, I go back to where I was before and keep moving forward. Those that already have training, or a system that works for them, then there is no reason to change it. I think is good that some of you try it, but there is no reason to say that it is incorrect, it just does not work for you. __________________ Sticks Curiosity was framed, poor judgment killed the cat A Government is comprised of a body of people notably ungoverned. Three can keep a secret if two are dead

January 17th, 2008, 11:10 AM	#48
FRT007 Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: NH Posts: 48	Wow. I 'triggered" quite a few responses. Thanks to all who replied. Last edited by FRT007; January 17th, 2008 at 11:10 AM. Reason: edited

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

January 17th, 2008, 12:43 AM	#43
bison Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: KS Posts: 63	I find my reasons for the thumb foward position is just as it been stated earlier, to decrease left/right drift when shooting. I have experimented with the "stacked" grip on a revolver, and its going to take a little getting use to. I think the best part of the thumbs foward grip is that it's safer and easily tranferable to about any handgun one may use. K.I.S.S theory at its best!!!! JMO!!!