Thumbs forward - why? - Page 6

edr9x23super · January 17th, 2008, 10:17 PM

Weighing in on this, I can say that there are a lot of interesting views on this; In 1998, I was at a USPSA area championship and had squadded in with several members of the SPECWAR community who were there along with the Army Marksmanship unit. During our time together, I got to ask the guys various questions about what they thought of certain aspects of shooting as it applied to real life combat. They all unanimously agreed that aside from the unrealistic gaming tactics employed during IPSC matches, everything else, from stances, grips, reloads, etc pretty much followed what was currently being practiced by USPSA/IDPA shooters today. They also unanimously agreed that consistent practice habits vastly accelerated learning curves and made handling real life situations much easier. In the words of one Desert Storm veteran, "because of all the training we had prior to the war, the first time they engaged enemy soldiers up close for real it was like the tangos were all moving in slow motion, like a video game. we hit them so fast, many of them never even brought their weapons to bear".

I have listened to guys like that ever since, and their opinions remain the same; Competition shooting techniques will be criticized for their lack of reality, or for use of a better term, their "gamer" origins, but the simple fact of the matter is, that they are an evolution in progress, that in our quest to develop the most physically economical technique possible to win a gun fight with the perfect balance of speed and accuracy it will always be tested in competition first, then its true worth will be proven on the street or the battlefield.

As far as what I have found out from guys that have actually thrown lead in anger, the thumbs-forward technique seems to occupy the top slot for now....

Especially since guys like Robbie Leatham and Todd Jarrett are training them.

Rob99VMI04 · January 18th, 2008, 04:27 PM

My .02

For max control USPSA style grip thumbs forward does provide the most maximum support and control for both speed and accuracy.

Actually if you just look at PHYSICS you can see the more meat of your hands supporting the COG (Center of Gravity) on the gun the more recoil will be absorbed by the shooter. The more your hands are off the gun(including thumbs crossed) the less control you have and the more of a FULCRUM effect you will create thus creating more muzzlerise then you would if you used thumbs forward. It maybe very minimal but it still is less.

However, personal choice is personal choice.
I have a friend on the Nation Coach Development Staff (shooting sports) basically they go around making shooting coaches for teams all the way up to the olympic level.

He made a statement at the olympic training center in Colorado Springs Colorado while he was teaching a coach school.

"There has never been a successful cross dominant shooter!"
In the crowd was IIRC Launie Mily who stood up and said. I'm a two time Olympic Gold medalist in small bore rifle, and I'm a cross dominant shooter, does this mean that I'm not a good shooter?

The next day the coach manual was changed!

The point of this is good shooters have incorporated many differn't methods coming up with their own method that works best for them. Thus making them an olympian/bianchi champion/uspsa champion/IDPA grandmaster etc.....

When you watch most of the tactical shooters who are winning matches or events. Doug Koenig, Julie Goloski, Dave Sevigny, Rob Leatham, most of them are shooting thumbs forward for the above reasons.

sheepdog · January 19th, 2008, 11:17 AM

I "learned" thumbs forward a few years ago, drifted away, and have gotten back to it. I do know a few things that apply to me: I was steering the gun with my right thumb (I'm a lefty). This caused problems I didn't even know I had. BTW, all my 1911s have flush slide stops on the right side-another problem, but for another thread. Second, if I get the grip just right, my right palm is all in contact with the grip, and the gun DOES NOT MOVE. To get the grip right, I have to keep my left thumb up (TDSA calls it "flagged thumb") until I'm going into the second part of the draw. This has made me able to activate the safety with the muzzle horizontal downrange instead of as the gun pivots up. I think this is a lot safer, don't know if it's on purpose or not. Last, and most important for me, when I do it all exactly right, I can actually track the front sight bouncing in the notch and returning to the same place like NOTHING I can replicate with my other grip. The first time I did this, I was stunned...the gun just fired and fell back on target as the trigger reset. Useful in IDPA, and I can't help but think that having the gun stay on target while firing would be even more useful in a real situation, even if I'm point shooting and not seeing the front sight. For me, the continued practice and learning with this grip has been more than worth it, but I had to get some professional instruction to really pound it home. But, I wouldn't necessarily try to unscrew and rethread a Weaver shooter if he/she didn't like it and didn't WANT to learn it. That's a subject for yet another thread.

RochPersDef · January 20th, 2008, 10:23 AM

I'll chime in with my support for the thumbs forward hold. The biggest advantage is that you end up surrounding the grip with hand. The thumb over thumb will create a gap for the pistol to recoil into. If you get into a combative situation with the thumb over hold, you can actually end up with a broken thumb or two. With the forward hold, you are less prone to grabbage (my new term) of your fingers and you can actually fight off the offender. It is also more easily repeatable, reliable, and less diagnostic as a grip. it is also easier to learn and engrain as there is less to figure out.

DOGOFWAR01 · January 21st, 2008, 02:19 AM

thumbs pointed forward works for two handed shooting, but will not work for one handed shooting.

square, flat, and one-way downrange shooting is not the real world and in most cases for CCW reaction on the streets is not the real world - 0 to 5 feet over in less than 3 seconds - multi-bad fellars with most in low to no light.

one handed shooting, both sides should be practiced at least as much as two handed shooting.

34% - left hand
33% - right hand
33% - both hands - practice - precision shot to the head of bad fellar with a hostage covering at least half the of head of the bad fellar, ideal both slow moving targets and -practice - longer distance shots - 25 to 50 yards with both of these practices in different body positions - prone to standing - cover to no cover (all types)

why not use both hands - vehicle and building doors, people (good and bad), flashlights, close distance to bad fellar, slows time to make the first shot esp CQB

DCJS Instructor · January 21st, 2008, 11:11 AM

I’ve become a firm believer in the saying: “It’s a way not the way.” The phrase means there are several acceptable ways to perform a technique, not just one “right” way. This is the first thing I learned at Blackwater as an Instructor. Of course there are wrong ways, but some instructors get hung up on one acceptable method and fail to recognize alternative styles that still accomplish the objective.

I shoot thumbs forward...I teach Thumbs forward...However I have a very good Instructor on my Staff who is Federal LE. and he never shoots thumbs forward. But he will Teach it!

What I teach is learn with an open mind you may not have a use for that technique or tactic now but put it in your “Tactical Tool box” one day you may need it.

However with that said, If you want to learn this method the correct way (I learned from Todd Jarret) then you need to train @ Perroni's Tactical Training Academy - Virginia Firearms Training or http://www.goldensealenterprises.

Tom Perroni

RochPersDef · January 21st, 2008, 07:56 PM

Hear, hear!

I will work with whatever method the student feels comfy with. Like you said, I shoot thumbs forward, I teach thumbs forward - or whatever works for them.

My way is not the only way, but it works for me and we'll find out what works for you.

1911NM · January 22nd, 2008, 12:20 PM

6 pages since I put my .02 in, and just had to add one more time. I so appreciate the trainers who are in evidence here stating the thumbs forward, isoceles type grip and stance is just one way. However, speaking from my experience as a long time shooter, and up until a couple years ago, a lousy pistol shot, when I was moved from Weaver to the thumbs forward, etc. by a coach, not only did I become a better shot, but became much more consistant. Those nasty left and low flyers went away as long as I pay attention to a consistent thumbs forward grip, and more squared stance. I am a believer, because it worked for me, and thank a coach who worked with me to make the change. To all the trainers here, you all are incredible, working with us doofus types who sometimes have a brain freeze on the simplest of concepts. My hat's off.

NetDefender · February 16th, 2008, 12:24 AM

Quote:

However with that said, If you want to learn this method the correct way (I learned from Todd Jarret) then you need to train @ Perroni's Tactical Training Academy - Virginia Firearms Training or http://www.goldensealenterprises.

Tom Perroni

I just finished a class with Tom. I can say he has made me a believer of the thumbs forward grip. I was a consistent low and left shooter. I learned the method from him and he said "trust me do it this way and your shooting will improve" he continued with "Its only A way not THE way."

I will say that with the performance I have seen with this grip it is "THE WAY" for me. I have now tried this grip with all of my handguns each with the same outcome. I am now putting my shots into 1.5-2inch group on command. Prior to training with Tom I trained with LE in North Carlina, USMC, and the US Army. Each had their strengths and weaknesses in their approach but the thumbs forward grip had a faster more drastic change in my shooting than all the other training I have had combined.

I highly recommend that you check out this training. Even you experienced shooters can pickup some useful skills from this excellent training. I congratulate Tom and Golden Seal Enterprises for putting together such a valuable training experience. Basic Handgun / Advanced Handgun.

Dennis David

January 17th, 2008, 09:35 PM	#51
Sticks Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Colorado Posts: 984	__________________ Sticks Curiosity was framed, poor judgment killed the cat A Government is comprised of a body of people notably ungoverned. Three can keep a secret if two are dead

January 17th, 2008, 10:17 PM	#52
edr9x23super Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Texas Posts: 971	Weighing in on this, I can say that there are a lot of interesting views on this; In 1998, I was at a USPSA area championship and had squadded in with several members of the SPECWAR community who were there along with the Army Marksmanship unit. During our time together, I got to ask the guys various questions about what they thought of certain aspects of shooting as it applied to real life combat. They all unanimously agreed that aside from the unrealistic gaming tactics employed during IPSC matches, everything else, from stances, grips, reloads, etc pretty much followed what was currently being practiced by USPSA/IDPA shooters today. They also unanimously agreed that consistent practice habits vastly accelerated learning curves and made handling real life situations much easier. In the words of one Desert Storm veteran, "because of all the training we had prior to the war, the first time they engaged enemy soldiers up close for real it was like the tangos were all moving in slow motion, like a video game. we hit them so fast, many of them never even brought their weapons to bear". I have listened to guys like that ever since, and their opinions remain the same; Competition shooting techniques will be criticized for their lack of reality, or for use of a better term, their "gamer" origins, but the simple fact of the matter is, that they are an evolution in progress, that in our quest to develop the most physically economical technique possible to win a gun fight with the perfect balance of speed and accuracy it will always be tested in competition first, then its true worth will be proven on the street or the battlefield. As far as what I have found out from guys that have actually thrown lead in anger, the thumbs-forward technique seems to occupy the top slot for now.... Especially since guys like Robbie Leatham and Todd Jarrett are training them. __________________ "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined". - Patrick Henry

January 18th, 2008, 04:27 PM	#53
Rob99VMI04 Distinguished Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: ABOVE is the FOOTPRINT of a common american CHICKEN Posts: 1,661	My .02 For max control USPSA style grip thumbs forward does provide the most maximum support and control for both speed and accuracy. Actually if you just look at PHYSICS you can see the more meat of your hands supporting the COG (Center of Gravity) on the gun the more recoil will be absorbed by the shooter. The more your hands are off the gun(including thumbs crossed) the less control you have and the more of a FULCRUM effect you will create thus creating more muzzlerise then you would if you used thumbs forward. It maybe very minimal but it still is less. However, personal choice is personal choice. I have a friend on the Nation Coach Development Staff (shooting sports) basically they go around making shooting coaches for teams all the way up to the olympic level. He made a statement at the olympic training center in Colorado Springs Colorado while he was teaching a coach school. "There has never been a successful cross dominant shooter!" In the crowd was IIRC Launie Mily who stood up and said. I'm a two time Olympic Gold medalist in small bore rifle, and I'm a cross dominant shooter, does this mean that I'm not a good shooter? The next day the coach manual was changed! The point of this is good shooters have incorporated many differn't methods coming up with their own method that works best for them. Thus making them an olympian/bianchi champion/uspsa champion/IDPA grandmaster etc..... When you watch most of the tactical shooters who are winning matches or events. Doug Koenig, Julie Goloski, Dave Sevigny, Rob Leatham, most of them are shooting thumbs forward for the above reasons. __________________ "You may find me one day dead in a ditch somewhere. But by God, you'll find me in a pile of brass." - Trooper M. Padgett "When seconds count.....Cops Respond in Minutes"

January 19th, 2008, 11:17 AM	#54
sheepdog Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Texas Posts: 500	I "learned" thumbs forward a few years ago, drifted away, and have gotten back to it. I do know a few things that apply to me: I was steering the gun with my right thumb (I'm a lefty). This caused problems I didn't even know I had. BTW, all my 1911s have flush slide stops on the right side-another problem, but for another thread. Second, if I get the grip just right, my right palm is all in contact with the grip, and the gun DOES NOT MOVE. To get the grip right, I have to keep my left thumb up (TDSA calls it "flagged thumb") until I'm going into the second part of the draw. This has made me able to activate the safety with the muzzle horizontal downrange instead of as the gun pivots up. I think this is a lot safer, don't know if it's on purpose or not. Last, and most important for me, when I do it all exactly right, I can actually track the front sight bouncing in the notch and returning to the same place like NOTHING I can replicate with my other grip. The first time I did this, I was stunned...the gun just fired and fell back on target as the trigger reset. Useful in IDPA, and I can't help but think that having the gun stay on target while firing would be even more useful in a real situation, even if I'm point shooting and not seeing the front sight. For me, the continued practice and learning with this grip has been more than worth it, but I had to get some professional instruction to really pound it home. But, I wouldn't necessarily try to unscrew and rethread a Weaver shooter if he/she didn't like it and didn't WANT to learn it. That's a subject for yet another thread. __________________ What Would Gumby Do? Last edited by sheepdog; January 19th, 2008 at 11:19 AM. Reason: add info

January 20th, 2008, 10:23 AM	#55
RochPersDef Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Rochester, NY Posts: 76	I'll chime in with my support for the thumbs forward hold. The biggest advantage is that you end up surrounding the grip with hand. The thumb over thumb will create a gap for the pistol to recoil into. If you get into a combative situation with the thumb over hold, you can actually end up with a broken thumb or two. With the forward hold, you are less prone to grabbage (my new term) of your fingers and you can actually fight off the offender. It is also more easily repeatable, reliable, and less diagnostic as a grip. it is also easier to learn and engrain as there is less to figure out. __________________ Peace comes not from goodwill, but from strength in the hands of good people Dave Rochester Personal Defense www.safeinrochester.com

January 21st, 2008, 02:19 AM	#56
DOGOFWAR01 Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: WYOMING Posts: 372	thumbs pointed forward works for two handed shooting, but will not work for one handed shooting. square, flat, and one-way downrange shooting is not the real world and in most cases for CCW reaction on the streets is not the real world - 0 to 5 feet over in less than 3 seconds - multi-bad fellars with most in low to no light. one handed shooting, both sides should be practiced at least as much as two handed shooting. 34% - left hand 33% - right hand 33% - both hands - practice - precision shot to the head of bad fellar with a hostage covering at least half the of head of the bad fellar, ideal both slow moving targets and -practice - longer distance shots - 25 to 50 yards with both of these practices in different body positions - prone to standing - cover to no cover (all types) why not use both hands - vehicle and building doors, people (good and bad), flashlights, close distance to bad fellar, slows time to make the first shot esp CQB

January 21st, 2008, 11:11 AM	#57
DCJS Instructor Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: CONUS Posts: 218	MY .02 I’ve become a firm believer in the saying: “It’s a way not the way.” The phrase means there are several acceptable ways to perform a technique, not just one “right” way. This is the first thing I learned at Blackwater as an Instructor. Of course there are wrong ways, but some instructors get hung up on one acceptable method and fail to recognize alternative styles that still accomplish the objective. I shoot thumbs forward...I teach Thumbs forward...However I have a very good Instructor on my Staff who is Federal LE. and he never shoots thumbs forward. But he will Teach it! What I teach is learn with an open mind you may not have a use for that technique or tactic now but put it in your “Tactical Tool box” one day you may need it. However with that said, If you want to learn this method the correct way (I learned from Todd Jarret) then you need to train @ Perroni's Tactical Training Academy - Virginia Firearms Training or http://www.goldensealenterprises. Tom Perroni

January 21st, 2008, 07:56 PM	#58
RochPersDef Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Rochester, NY Posts: 76	Hear, hear! I will work with whatever method the student feels comfy with. Like you said, I shoot thumbs forward, I teach thumbs forward - or whatever works for them. My way is not the only way, but it works for me and we'll find out what works for you. __________________ Peace comes not from goodwill, but from strength in the hands of good people Dave Rochester Personal Defense www.safeinrochester.com

January 22nd, 2008, 12:20 PM	#59
1911NM Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: New Mexico Posts: 307	6 pages since I put my .02 in, and just had to add one more time. I so appreciate the trainers who are in evidence here stating the thumbs forward, isoceles type grip and stance is just one way. However, speaking from my experience as a long time shooter, and up until a couple years ago, a lousy pistol shot, when I was moved from Weaver to the thumbs forward, etc. by a coach, not only did I become a better shot, but became much more consistant. Those nasty left and low flyers went away as long as I pay attention to a consistent thumbs forward grip, and more squared stance. I am a believer, because it worked for me, and thank a coach who worked with me to make the change. To all the trainers here, you all are incredible, working with us doofus types who sometimes have a brain freeze on the simplest of concepts. My hat's off. __________________ NRA, USPSA SS & Lim-10 Blessed are they who, faced with danger, think only of the front sight. J. Cooper

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode