IDPA & Training: Putting your skills to use - Page 2

Reborn · May 16th, 2008, 09:32 AM

The thing about competition is stress. There is an added stress factor when people are watching you and going against time. I shot against other agencies during my LEO days. It was great. Now I compete against other tactical trainers and LEO ranger masters.

Cthulhu · May 16th, 2008, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miggy

Cthulhu, Make sure to strike a balance between enforcement and fun. I give New Shooters a break on their first stage if they make a booboo but take them to one side and explain what they did wrong. Next stage they get dinged if they repeat the mistake and that is when it starts to settle in. I tend to get nastier with gamers, specially if we are going to a sanctioned match. Amazingly, alongside the cover, the most common violation happens before they even draw and is they start moving in anticipation of the beep. And yes, I am the sob that goes :Shooter Is Ready, Stand by (wait anywhere for 4 to 10 seconds) BEEP!" although I am thinking on loosing the beep right before I finish saying Stand-By

I'm not on the committee

, but I think the members that are on the committee won't rulebook the shooters to death. However, those that relied purely on their 'gaming' for good scores will probably get miffed until they learn to adjust.

I'm sure there will be warnings for new shooters and gamers alike. I think the new shooters will appreciate the warning and opportunity to correct a bad habit. The gamers, not so much

-JT

kazzaerexys · May 16th, 2008, 02:46 PM

Keeping in mind that every form of training is to some extent a game, in that your life is not really at stake and you are not going to kill somebody, I think Miggy and Cthulhu already nailed it---you certainly can get training value out of it. Depending on how inherently competitive you are, it may be hard when that beep goes off to think about training and technique rather than time. That's up to you, of course.

As for me, well, I will happily use my MTAC and a normal cover garment for local club matches. When I go to the sanctioned PA State match tomorrow, I will be using my Blackhawk and a shoot-me vest (and I would be firing powder-puff loads that barely make power factor if I loaded my own, too!).

Redneck Repairs · May 16th, 2008, 03:55 PM

Way back when ( pleas do not make age slurs ) IPSC was new and sweeping the country . Before i became the range officer , and for a time after ( untill i could set up a non square range... as a side note ranges cost $$ that will not be in a budget LOL ) i both shot and attempted to encorage my " gun oriented officers " into ipsc due solely to the scenarios . Hell i bought bullets and powder out of my pocket several times to keep them shooting ( had one guy who would reload , and not short stroke a progressive ( which i bought too lol , a junk lee ) too many times . We shot matches , we lost matches , Not because we couldnt shoot , it was a rare thing for us to be out scored on target . We got our butts kicked on time ( we had too much per stage) and tactics ( we had too much ) lol . Real world tactics dont lend themselves to " fun games " If your in a robery at the local " stop and rob " in a small town the local constabulary will likely be there before you can so much as clear the isles you can see . If you think the gameing barricade technique works well you will die young enough to make a pretty corpse . this is one place that my crew lost time , many were dq'd because they would step out of the box on barricade ( to them it wasnt support , and it wasnt cover , it was concealment that might disrupt bullet path if they were far enough back ) or they would slice the pie untill they found the target . Just food for thought , and i have to say that one of the local business men shot as a gamer , and had he slowed down a bit he could have had real promice but he over shot his abilitys . He chided me and the officers on our slow times , i then ran a gamer run only i made it a point to head shoot all hostages . He advised my time was admirable with a " stock gun " but my accuracy was deplorable. I just pointed out to him that if his buisness ( a liquor store ) was held up i would be the first one thro the door to come get him . Tho unintended he counted headshots on hostages and my agencys reserve orginisation had a $300. donation in a few days from his business .
Point is that IDPA came about to cure the gamer in IPSC that did not work . Nor ever can it . It is still a great tool , just ignore the " factored " score and then if ever ( your god (s) ) forbid you have to do it in real life you score will be apparent . For myself i have managed to muddle thro a couple of times that things went rodeo . I have to say tho i came out well due to luck not wisdom .

HighVelocity · May 16th, 2008, 05:30 PM

If in doubt, read the IDPA website.

International Defensive Pistol Association - What is IDPA?

It is a "sport", by Bill Wilson's own definition.

Miggy · May 16th, 2008, 07:28 PM

You say Potato I say kumquat

MattLarson · May 16th, 2008, 07:50 PM

IDPA can be practice, or game (or both) depending on your approach.

If you use a more "gamey" rig for competition, in order to improve scores, that's fine - you're still getting trigger time off a square range.

If you use your EDC gear, so much the better.

Me, I'm primarily there for fun.

Matt

KenInColo · May 16th, 2008, 09:32 PM

IDAP is certainly fun but I must say that I was very surprised at my first match score. I was only 13 down, that's 13 shots outside the -0 ring! I did however incur 17 penalties. But my times put me in the lower 1/3 of the shooters. It seems that speed is worth more than accuracy.

My LEO friend said I shot like a cop, slow and careful, making sure of my target and shot placement. I was honored by what he said.

The next match I shot as fast as I could and took about 4 times more points down but improved my position by about 40% against the same shooters.

I don't know what to think.

It's good practice but for training I will still take le$$ons from the pros.

Miggy · May 17th, 2008, 06:39 AM

What kind of penalties you got?

TheHun · May 17th, 2008, 07:41 AM

I am going to be cruel.
IDPA (and also IPSC) is a gun game. A true test of your gun handling- shooting skills. NOTHING MORE!
If you get your a@@ handed to you, your shooting skills are NOT up to the challenge!
And don't try to find an excuse like it's not your main game or you learn from the pros. You just need to work on your skills not blaming it on something else...

Also if you shot more accurately then those who placed well above you with more points down.... you are SLOW. You need accuracy at speed! Think about it...in a real self defence scenario you won't have time for a 5 sec draw and and an other few sec to squeeze out a shot finally.

If you can not hit (mostly) stationary targets (who don't even shoot back at you) what do you expect from yourself in a real scenario???

disclaimer: I have a low post count so I have nothing to do with shooting obviously,

May 16th, 2008, 09:32 AM	#11
Reborn Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Rowlett, Texas Posts: 1,159	The thing about competition is stress. There is an added stress factor when people are watching you and going against time. I shot against other agencies during my LEO days. It was great. Now I compete against other tactical trainers and LEO ranger masters. __________________ Psalms 144:1 Blessed be the Lord my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight. Senior Instructor for Tactical and Defensive of Texas CHL INSTRUCTOR Retired LEO NRA member TCHA member

May 16th, 2008, 02:46 PM	#13
kazzaerexys Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Maryland Posts: 876	Keeping in mind that every form of training is to some extent a game, in that your life is not really at stake and you are not going to kill somebody, I think Miggy and Cthulhu already nailed it---you certainly can get training value out of it. Depending on how inherently competitive you are, it may be hard when that beep goes off to think about training and technique rather than time. That's up to you, of course. As for me, well, I will happily use my MTAC and a normal cover garment for local club matches. When I go to the sanctioned PA State match tomorrow, I will be using my Blackhawk and a shoot-me vest (and I would be firing powder-puff loads that barely make power factor if I loaded my own, too!). __________________ “What is a moderate interpretation of [the Constitution]? Halfway between what it says and [...] what you want it to say?” —Justice Antonin Scalia

May 16th, 2008, 07:28 PM	#16
Miggy VIP Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Miami-Dade, FL Posts: 4,208	You say Potato I say kumquat __________________ You have to make the shot when fire is smoking, people are screaming, dogs are barking, kids are crying and sirens are coming. Randy Cain. GunFreeZone.net

May 16th, 2008, 07:50 PM	#17
MattLarson Moderator Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Central Florida Posts: 2,378	IDPA can be practice, or game (or both) depending on your approach. If you use a more "gamey" rig for competition, in order to improve scores, that's fine - you're still getting trigger time off a square range. If you use your EDC gear, so much the better. Me, I'm primarily there for fun. Matt __________________ Hope is not a plan.

May 16th, 2008, 09:32 PM	#18
KenInColo Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: western Colorado Posts: 448	IDAP is certainly fun but I must say that I was very surprised at my first match score. I was only 13 down, that's 13 shots outside the -0 ring! I did however incur 17 penalties. But my times put me in the lower 1/3 of the shooters. It seems that speed is worth more than accuracy. My LEO friend said I shot like a cop, slow and careful, making sure of my target and shot placement. I was honored by what he said. The next match I shot as fast as I could and took about 4 times more points down but improved my position by about 40% against the same shooters. I don't know what to think. It's good practice but for training I will still take le$$ons from the pros. __________________ An armed populace are called citizens. An unarmed populace are called subjects.

May 16th, 2008, 03:55 PM	#14
Redneck Repairs VIP Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Colorado Posts: 5,141	Way back when ( pleas do not make age slurs ) IPSC was new and sweeping the country . Before i became the range officer , and for a time after ( untill i could set up a non square range... as a side note ranges cost $$ that will not be in a budget LOL ) i both shot and attempted to encorage my " gun oriented officers " into ipsc due solely to the scenarios . Hell i bought bullets and powder out of my pocket several times to keep them shooting ( had one guy who would reload , and not short stroke a progressive ( which i bought too lol , a junk lee ) too many times . We shot matches , we lost matches , Not because we couldnt shoot , it was a rare thing for us to be out scored on target . We got our butts kicked on time ( we had too much per stage) and tactics ( we had too much ) lol . Real world tactics dont lend themselves to " fun games " If your in a robery at the local " stop and rob " in a small town the local constabulary will likely be there before you can so much as clear the isles you can see . If you think the gameing barricade technique works well you will die young enough to make a pretty corpse . this is one place that my crew lost time , many were dq'd because they would step out of the box on barricade ( to them it wasnt support , and it wasnt cover , it was concealment that might disrupt bullet path if they were far enough back ) or they would slice the pie untill they found the target . Just food for thought , and i have to say that one of the local business men shot as a gamer , and had he slowed down a bit he could have had real promice but he over shot his abilitys . He chided me and the officers on our slow times , i then ran a gamer run only i made it a point to head shoot all hostages . He advised my time was admirable with a " stock gun " but my accuracy was deplorable. I just pointed out to him that if his buisness ( a liquor store ) was held up i would be the first one thro the door to come get him . Tho unintended he counted headshots on hostages and my agencys reserve orginisation had a $300. donation in a few days from his business . Point is that IDPA came about to cure the gamer in IPSC that did not work . Nor ever can it . It is still a great tool , just ignore the " factored " score and then if ever ( your god (s) ) forbid you have to do it in real life you score will be apparent . For myself i have managed to muddle thro a couple of times that things went rodeo . I have to say tho i came out well due to luck not wisdom .

May 16th, 2008, 05:30 PM	#15
HighVelocity Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: TEXAS Posts: 248	If in doubt, read the IDPA website. International Defensive Pistol Association - What is IDPA? It is a "sport", by Bill Wilson's own definition.

May 17th, 2008, 06:39 AM	#19
Miggy VIP Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Miami-Dade, FL Posts: 4,208	What kind of penalties you got? __________________ You have to make the shot when fire is smoking, people are screaming, dogs are barking, kids are crying and sirens are coming. Randy Cain. GunFreeZone.net

May 17th, 2008, 07:41 AM	#20
TheHun Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: area 1 Posts: 106	I am going to be cruel. IDPA (and also IPSC) is a gun game. A true test of your gun handling- shooting skills. NOTHING MORE! If you get your a@@ handed to you, your shooting skills are NOT up to the challenge! And don't try to find an excuse like it's not your main game or you learn from the pros. You just need to work on your skills not blaming it on something else... Also if you shot more accurately then those who placed well above you with more points down.... you are SLOW. You need accuracy at speed! Think about it...in a real self defence scenario you won't have time for a 5 sec draw and and an other few sec to squeeze out a shot finally. If you can not hit (mostly) stationary targets (who don't even shoot back at you) what do you expect from yourself in a real scenario??? disclaimer: I have a low post count so I have nothing to do with shooting obviously, __________________ I carry a gun cause I can't carry a cop.

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