Winchester Ranger 45+P - Page 3

AzQkr · July 28th, 2006, 10:51 PM

as i understand it, 950 fps is required for "reliable" expansion, and obtaining 950 fps (particularly in 4" and less barrels) is much easier with +P. granted, expansion isnt as critical in .45.

Where do you get this information from?

Most major 45 230 loads operate at about 830+- fps from a 5 inch barrel. The better ammo like the Rangers are designed to operate optimally at that or close to that velocity envelope. They expand just fine in that fps range as do most HP's from quality ammo.

I think a small barreled 45 might benefit from the +P to keep the velocity up as you mention, and in fact use the 124+p bonded Ranger load in the g26 short barrel for this reason.

That would be the only reason [ keep the velocity up ] to think about +P in a 45 to my thinking however. In the Glocks, it doesn't really make as much of a difference due to the polygonal bore as their barrels usually produce a little more than advertised velocity and more than from a standard barrels rifling.

Brownie

NaturalSelection · July 28th, 2006, 10:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AzQkr

If we were to strictly carry for worst case scenario

i consider any defensive shooting to be "worst case", and this is exactly why i carry.

....in keeping with that, i carry as much gun as i possibly can based upon circumstances (.357 auto glock at work, .45 acp +P loaded 1911 any other time).

i referenced the above based on the last "bad experience" i had. a drunk and angry indian guy came into a crowded room that i was in. he was loud and acting very aggressive. although his anger wasnt directed at me, simply being there and not knowing what he would be capable of, i felt threatened. this guy was huge, and i found a lot of comfort in my .45 and 230 grain corbon +p's.

Quote:

the Ranger 45+p actually expanded faster due to the increased velocity and thus penetrated LESS than the standard ranger 45 load.

i have a theory about winchester ammunition that ive mentioned a few times in here before. i know first hand that my corbon 230 grain +p's (as well as the hornady xtp) will penetrate deeper than wwb ball, at least in every backstop ive tested.

Quote:

But it is fun to think about running into an rogue elephant escaped from the zoo

you really think very large bad guys would be as rare as escaped elephants?

if you dont think +P loads serve a purpose, dont carry them.....but their level of necessity is relevant to the needs of each individual shooter. for defensive purposes, id carry .45 super if they were more readily available.

NaturalSelection · July 28th, 2006, 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AzQkr

as i understand it, 950 fps is required for "reliable" expansion, and obtaining 950 fps (particularly in 4" and less barrels) is much easier with +P. granted, expansion isnt as critical in .45.

Where do you get this information from?

from gun rags ive read. i can poke around a little for a source. not an absolute science i know, but "those who know" (or are supposed to anyway) seem to agree on the 950 fps number.

AzQkr · July 28th, 2006, 11:13 PM

NaturalSelection;

I think +p serves a considerable purpose, just not necesaary in full size guns.

Worst case scenario with the big gorilla was your comment, the bigger guys be more of a worst case which I'm pretty sure you were using to make the point over a "normal" male in the population.

If I have to shoot someone with my wimpy 124 grain 9mm like that, he just gets more of them, not less until he no longer has a problem with me.

i have a theory about winchester ammunition that ive mentioned a few times in here before. i know first hand that my corbon 230 grain +p's (as well as the hornady xtp) will penetrate deeper than wwb ball, at least in every backstop ive tested.

The type of backstop would make a huge difference here in your comment. Backstops can plug the hp and act like ball. If the +p plugs in backstop, it stands to reason it goes deeper than standard ball ammo die to the increased velocity.

I can't imagine any hp that doesn't plug and opens as expected digging deeper than a 230 ball rd. or any load in any caliber. The hp is designed to expand and not dig as deep as ball. If your Corbons are digging deeper than ball, they are either plugging or not expanding for some other reason, in any case, they are not performing as designed.

you really think very large bad guys would be as rare as escaped elephants?

Of course not, but 6'8" 300 pound BG's are pretty rare. I don't think I've seen someone [ anyone ] fitting that description on the street in a long time [ that was the analogy about the elephant ].

Can you provide the database/research that you saw which leads you to this? "950 fps is required for "reliable" expansion"?

Of course carry what you feel comfortable with. Hell, I carry a 9mm and feel comfortable.

Brownie

Doc Holliday · July 28th, 2006, 11:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NaturalSelection

i referenced the above based on the last "bad experience" i had. a drunk and angry indian guy came into a crowded room that i was in. he was loud and acting very aggressive. although his anger wasnt directed at me, simply being there and not knowing what he would be capable of, i felt threatened. this guy was huge, and i found a lot of comfort in my .45 and 230 grain corbon +p's.

Perhaps getting out of the room would have been the best answer to this problem. Waiting around for this guy to direct his anger towards you wouldn't have been a good thing. Plus, are you going to draw on an unarmed man? I don't know if you can prove that he would have killed you or caused excessive bodily damage enough to justify the shoot. One of the worst things a concealed carrier can do is get into a fistfight. You need to avoid, avoid, avoid if all possible.

Sorry didn't mean to hijack the thread. Just my .02.

AzQkr · July 28th, 2006, 11:17 PM

from gun rags ive read. i can poke around a little for a source. not an absolute science i know, but "those who know" (or are supposed to anyway) seem to agree on the 950 fps number.

If that were true, and I seriously doubt it is, the ammo makers would not keep loading hp's at 830 per in their premium ammo. They would know all about that subject and have a much better pulse on the subject in developing optimum performance loads than about anyone.

If several SD premium load ammo makers design their 230 heads to expand optimally around that velocity envelope, it doesn't make sense that 950 would be a real figure.

Brownie

NaturalSelection · July 29th, 2006, 01:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AzQkr

If I have to shoot someone with my wimpy 124 grain 9mm like that, he just gets more of them

my g19 is my BUG and i dont feel under-gunned with corbon 125 grain +p's.

Quote:

I can't imagine any hp that doesn't plug and opens as expected digging deeper than a 230 ball rd. or any load in any caliber.

my testing typically involves coyote or blocks of ice placed behind car doors. nothing scientific i know, but it works for me to give me an idea of expected ballistic performance. hitting a coyote from the side i rarely retrieve any +p loads but those i have either retrieved from the animal or dug from trees behind the animal have nice expansion. the considerable additional pressure (from corbon +p to WWB ball) has pushed the +p loads deeper consistantly. one of these days im going to learn how to make ballistic gelatin since this seems to be the only "accepted" method of testing.

Quote:

Can you provide the database/research that you saw which leads you to this? "950 fps is required for "reliable" expansion"?

sure, it will take some time do dig it up but ill see what i can come up with this weekend.

NaturalSelection · July 29th, 2006, 01:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doc Holliday

Perhaps getting out of the room would have been the best answer to this problem.

nope. this would have required walking directly past him with my children (he walked in and started his scene near the door). instead i just tried to blend in with everyone else while keeping a watchful eye.

Quote:

One of the worst things a concealed carrier can do is get into a fistfight. You need to avoid, avoid, avoid if all possible.

whether you carry or not, there are to many blood based diseases to "mix it up" with anybody.

NaturalSelection · July 29th, 2006, 01:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AzQkr

If that were true, and I seriously doubt it is, the ammo makers would not keep loading hp's at 830 per in their premium ammo.

i dont think we're debating the effects of velocity on both expansion and penetration. i think what we're debating is the velocity at which point expansion becomes "reliable". i realize bullets expand at much less than 950 fps, but there are varying degrees of "reliable". very few "premium" 45 acp defensive loads are in the 830-850 fps range......especially in comparison to the available loads that meet or exceed 950 fps.

Quote:

If several SD premium load ammo makers design their 230 heads to expand optimally around that velocity envelope, it doesn't make sense that 950 would be a real figure.

maybe they hope to sell to those who believe the over-penetration myth. maybe they hope to sell to those who want less recoil. <shrug> ill see what i can dig up. its been awhile, but i know ive read that (reliable expansion occurs at 950 fps) from more than one source.

AzQkr · July 29th, 2006, 02:35 AM

From a sig220 4.25 inch barrel

Win Ranger 230 JHP=857fps 16.5" of penetration expanded to .705"
Federal Classic 230-gr JHP=839 fps
Winchester Personal Def. 230gr=756fps 16.0"penetration to .690"
Speer 230-gr Gold Dot=823 fps 14.0" penetration expanded to .662"
Remington 230-gr Golden Saber BJHP=822 18.80"of penetration
Federal 230 Hydrashok=858fps 16.35"penetration expanded to0.66"
Winchester 230-gr Subsonic JHP=834
Winchester USA 230-gr FMJ=771

Corbon 45 AUTO+P 230 GR. JHP=950 FPS 13" penetration, no listing for expanded bullet size was only the only data on pentration for this load in formal testing.

I supply the above for everyones edification. Premium standard 230 gr loads from major manufacturers that I can find show 16"+ of penetration with the exception of one which was 14" at the nominal velocities usually found around 830-850 fps.

If I get even 14" of penetration in the Saber on some big dude, I think it will be enough to get to the vitals.

The one source I found for the Corbon +p 230 showed it did not penetrate as well. I believe that is due to the rapid expansion of the jhp bullet head due to the higher velocity. This mirrors my own observations of most +p ammo.

Optimum penetration for the 45acp is considered in the 10-12" range. A foot of penetration would have been more than enough on a 300 pound man IMO.

Brownie

July 28th, 2006, 10:51 PM	#21
AzQkr Distinguished Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: In the Superstitions Posts: 1,379	as i understand it, 950 fps is required for "reliable" expansion, and obtaining 950 fps (particularly in 4" and less barrels) is much easier with +P. granted, expansion isnt as critical in .45. Where do you get this information from? Most major 45 230 loads operate at about 830+- fps from a 5 inch barrel. The better ammo like the Rangers are designed to operate optimally at that or close to that velocity envelope. They expand just fine in that fps range as do most HP's from quality ammo. I think a small barreled 45 might benefit from the +P to keep the velocity up as you mention, and in fact use the 124+p bonded Ranger load in the g26 short barrel for this reason. That would be the only reason [ keep the velocity up ] to think about +P in a 45 to my thinking however. In the Glocks, it doesn't really make as much of a difference due to the polygonal bore as their barrels usually produce a little more than advertised velocity and more than from a standard barrels rifling. Brownie __________________ The mind is the limiting factor http://www.threatfocused.com/forums/index.php

July 28th, 2006, 11:13 PM	#24
AzQkr Distinguished Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: In the Superstitions Posts: 1,379	NaturalSelection; I think +p serves a considerable purpose, just not necesaary in full size guns. Worst case scenario with the big gorilla was your comment, the bigger guys be more of a worst case which I'm pretty sure you were using to make the point over a "normal" male in the population. If I have to shoot someone with my wimpy 124 grain 9mm like that, he just gets more of them, not less until he no longer has a problem with me. i have a theory about winchester ammunition that ive mentioned a few times in here before. i know first hand that my corbon 230 grain +p's (as well as the hornady xtp) will penetrate deeper than wwb ball, at least in every backstop ive tested. The type of backstop would make a huge difference here in your comment. Backstops can plug the hp and act like ball. If the +p plugs in backstop, it stands to reason it goes deeper than standard ball ammo die to the increased velocity. I can't imagine any hp that doesn't plug and opens as expected digging deeper than a 230 ball rd. or any load in any caliber. The hp is designed to expand and not dig as deep as ball. If your Corbons are digging deeper than ball, they are either plugging or not expanding for some other reason, in any case, they are not performing as designed. you really think very large bad guys would be as rare as escaped elephants? Of course not, but 6'8" 300 pound BG's are pretty rare. I don't think I've seen someone [ anyone ] fitting that description on the street in a long time [ that was the analogy about the elephant ]. Can you provide the database/research that you saw which leads you to this? "950 fps is required for "reliable" expansion"? Of course carry what you feel comfortable with. Hell, I carry a 9mm and feel comfortable. Brownie __________________ The mind is the limiting factor http://www.threatfocused.com/forums/index.php

July 28th, 2006, 11:17 PM	#26
AzQkr Distinguished Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: In the Superstitions Posts: 1,379	from gun rags ive read. i can poke around a little for a source. not an absolute science i know, but "those who know" (or are supposed to anyway) seem to agree on the 950 fps number. If that were true, and I seriously doubt it is, the ammo makers would not keep loading hp's at 830 per in their premium ammo. They would know all about that subject and have a much better pulse on the subject in developing optimum performance loads than about anyone. If several SD premium load ammo makers design their 230 heads to expand optimally around that velocity envelope, it doesn't make sense that 950 would be a real figure. Brownie __________________ The mind is the limiting factor http://www.threatfocused.com/forums/index.php

July 29th, 2006, 02:35 AM	#30
AzQkr Distinguished Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: In the Superstitions Posts: 1,379	From a sig220 4.25 inch barrel Win Ranger 230 JHP=857fps 16.5" of penetration expanded to .705" Federal Classic 230-gr JHP=839 fps Winchester Personal Def. 230gr=756fps 16.0"penetration to .690" Speer 230-gr Gold Dot=823 fps 14.0" penetration expanded to .662" Remington 230-gr Golden Saber BJHP=822 18.80"of penetration Federal 230 Hydrashok=858fps 16.35"penetration expanded to0.66" Winchester 230-gr Subsonic JHP=834 Winchester USA 230-gr FMJ=771 Corbon 45 AUTO+P 230 GR. JHP=950 FPS 13" penetration, no listing for expanded bullet size was only the only data on pentration for this load in formal testing. I supply the above for everyones edification. Premium standard 230 gr loads from major manufacturers that I can find show 16"+ of penetration with the exception of one which was 14" at the nominal velocities usually found around 830-850 fps. If I get even 14" of penetration in the Saber on some big dude, I think it will be enough to get to the vitals. The one source I found for the Corbon +p 230 showed it did not penetrate as well. I believe that is due to the rapid expansion of the jhp bullet head due to the higher velocity. This mirrors my own observations of most +p ammo. Optimum penetration for the 45acp is considered in the 10-12" range. A foot of penetration would have been more than enough on a 300 pound man IMO. Brownie __________________ The mind is the limiting factor http://www.threatfocused.com/forums/index.php

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