Sectional Density and defensive ammo

hopetonvrshoot · November 5th, 2006, 08:08 PM

Sectional density is a common discussion among hunters. Does it not apply to defensive ammunition? This is my first post (question) so please don't slam my attempts at finding answers to serious questions (at least to me).
I am looking at a 230 grain 45 ACP, Federal Hydra Shock that is flat and perfectly mushroomed with the post sticking up proudly, and a 357 Mag 158 grain soft point that did not disrupt in the least after being fired into (through) 5-1 gallon jugs of water. Admittedly not a scientific test but simple to do and relative to each successive identical test.
Just what would be the ultimate requirement for a busy casino gaming floor...penetration or expansion? I will not allow over-penetration, but a round that cannot make it to the vitals is just as bad for my officers.
Someone has to have a line of logic that I have not considered. Help?

Bud White · November 5th, 2006, 08:15 PM

At the Range your going to use it no Sectional density wont apply

You would want both penetration and expansion something like the hydrashock or the Golden saber are designed to do both but not overpenetrate most times ..

As for shooting though water for me it doesn't mean a thing

There is a website im sure someone will post that is a link to some of the tests for self defense ammo

I lost all my links when hard drive failed so i don't have it

hopetonvrshoot · November 5th, 2006, 08:20 PM

Thanks Bud for the quick reply. I have heard alot of stories of my favorite 45 ACP ammo. Some of the guy's carry 40's and a couple 9mm. Just trying to put my mind at ease with my HP only rule.

Bud White · November 5th, 2006, 08:24 PM

Almost Any Hp will serve you well Ball works but ya run into overpentration and then the dangers that go with it

In extreme winter were everyone is wearing about 3 coats i will carry ball as back up here but nothing but in the coldest weather

You could also look for Corbon Powerball that is good ammo also

tabraha · November 5th, 2006, 08:26 PM

Here's a link to a defense ammo tester:
http://www.theboxotruth.com/

Pretty popular site to peruse. Lots of food for thought there.

hopetonvrshoot · November 5th, 2006, 08:29 PM

Thanks Tab...I'm going to take a look right now.

steve_db · November 5th, 2006, 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bud White

There is a website im sure someone will post that is a link to some of the tests for self defense ammo

this one?
http://www.theboxotruth.com/

Bud White · November 5th, 2006, 08:35 PM

no there's another one but box o truth is good read

AzQkr · November 5th, 2006, 09:25 PM

Sectional density [ SD ] of various pistol rounds. SD is directly linked to penetration and figures prominently in all bullets performance.

Bullet Weight/ Cartridge/ Sectional Density
158gr .38 Special/.357 Magnum .177
150gr .357 Sig .170
147gr 9mm Luger .167
145gr .357 Magnum .163
230gr .45 ACP .162
180gr .40 S&W .161
135gr 9mm Luger/.357 Sig .153
165gr .40 S&W .148
130gr .38 Special .147
127gr 9mm Luger .144
124gr 9mm Luger .141
200gr .45 ACP .140
125gr .38 Special/.357 Magnum .140
155gr .40 S&W .138
185gr .45 ACP .130
115gr 9mm Luger/.357 Sig .130
110gr .38 Special/.357 Magnum .123
135gr .40 S&W .121
165gr .45 ACP .116
40gr .22 LR .114
100gr 9mm Luger .113
50gr .25 ACP .112
95gr 9mm Luger/.380 ACP .108
71gr .32 ACP .104
90gr 9mm Luger/.380 ACP .102
45gr .25 ACP .102
36gr .22 LR .102
65gr .32 ACP .096
32gr .22 LR .092
60gr .32 ACP .088
35gr .25 ACP .079

Brownie

Roundeyesamurai · November 8th, 2006, 08:16 AM

Hope:

Before reading this post, I must say that on a practical basis, I agree with Bud in that most of this is academic, when considering various service pistol cartridges at very short combative ranges. However, in terms of broadening and deepening one's understanding of the study of firearms and ammunition, this material is invaluable.

I posted recently in another thread about this subject, and I'll post here as well:

Sectional density, in and of itself, doesn't mean very much. The combination of sectional density, ballistic coefficient, and velocity together determine the penetrative qualities of the bullet.

There is an Achilles' Heel to this formula, however: It doesn't predict the amount of "hang time" that a bullet will experience once inside the body. The greater the "hang time" (amount of time the bullet spends travelling through the medium), the greater the tissue disruption (due to exertion of energy upon the material surrounding the bullet). Too much of any one of the three factors will drastically reduce "hang time".

Hollowpoints are as effective as they are (in comparison to ball) for one very simple reason: It is possible to create a hollowpoint bullet which exhibits greater sectional density and ballistic coefficient needed to penetrate deeply, and such bullet can be propelled at greater velocity in order to develop greater kinetic energy, and then expand within the body and effectively reverse the SD-BC-V formula in order to assure a great deal of hang time (thereby assuring thorough expenditure of energy) by drastically reducing the bullet's penetrative qualities.

I will post more after bit, but I must breakfast first.

November 5th, 2006, 08:08 PM	#1
hopetonvrshoot New Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: California Posts: 13	Sectional Density and defensive ammo Sectional density is a common discussion among hunters. Does it not apply to defensive ammunition? This is my first post (question) so please don't slam my attempts at finding answers to serious questions (at least to me). I am looking at a 230 grain 45 ACP, Federal Hydra Shock that is flat and perfectly mushroomed with the post sticking up proudly, and a 357 Mag 158 grain soft point that did not disrupt in the least after being fired into (through) 5-1 gallon jugs of water. Admittedly not a scientific test but simple to do and relative to each successive identical test. Just what would be the ultimate requirement for a busy casino gaming floor...penetration or expansion? I will not allow over-penetration, but a round that cannot make it to the vitals is just as bad for my officers. Someone has to have a line of logic that I have not considered. Help?

November 5th, 2006, 08:26 PM	#5
tabraha Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: S.C. Posts: 182	Here's a link to a defense ammo tester: http://www.theboxotruth.com/ Pretty popular site to peruse. Lots of food for thought there. __________________ ______________________ Tad A.

November 5th, 2006, 09:25 PM	#9
AzQkr Distinguished Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: In the Superstitions Posts: 1,439	Sectional density [ SD ] of various pistol rounds. SD is directly linked to penetration and figures prominently in all bullets performance. Bullet Weight/ Cartridge/ Sectional Density 158gr .38 Special/.357 Magnum .177 150gr .357 Sig .170 147gr 9mm Luger .167 145gr .357 Magnum .163 230gr .45 ACP .162 180gr .40 S&W .161 135gr 9mm Luger/.357 Sig .153 165gr .40 S&W .148 130gr .38 Special .147 127gr 9mm Luger .144 124gr 9mm Luger .141 200gr .45 ACP .140 125gr .38 Special/.357 Magnum .140 155gr .40 S&W .138 185gr .45 ACP .130 115gr 9mm Luger/.357 Sig .130 110gr .38 Special/.357 Magnum .123 135gr .40 S&W .121 165gr .45 ACP .116 40gr .22 LR .114 100gr 9mm Luger .113 50gr .25 ACP .112 95gr 9mm Luger/.380 ACP .108 71gr .32 ACP .104 90gr 9mm Luger/.380 ACP .102 45gr .25 ACP .102 36gr .22 LR .102 65gr .32 ACP .096 32gr .22 LR .092 60gr .32 ACP .088 35gr .25 ACP .079 Brownie __________________ The mind is the limiting factor http://www.threatfocused.com/forums/index.php

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November 5th, 2006, 08:15 PM	#2
Bud White VIP Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Elsewhere Posts: 17,476	At the Range your going to use it no Sectional density wont apply You would want both penetration and expansion something like the hydrashock or the Golden saber are designed to do both but not overpenetrate most times .. As for shooting though water for me it doesn't mean a thing There is a website im sure someone will post that is a link to some of the tests for self defense ammo I lost all my links when hard drive failed so i don't have it

November 5th, 2006, 08:20 PM	#3
hopetonvrshoot New Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: California Posts: 13	Thanks Bud for the quick reply. I have heard alot of stories of my favorite 45 ACP ammo. Some of the guy's carry 40's and a couple 9mm. Just trying to put my mind at ease with my HP only rule.

November 5th, 2006, 08:24 PM	#4
Bud White VIP Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Elsewhere Posts: 17,476	Almost Any Hp will serve you well Ball works but ya run into overpentration and then the dangers that go with it In extreme winter were everyone is wearing about 3 coats i will carry ball as back up here but nothing but in the coldest weather You could also look for Corbon Powerball that is good ammo also

November 5th, 2006, 08:29 PM	#6
hopetonvrshoot New Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: California Posts: 13	Thanks Tab...I'm going to take a look right now.

November 5th, 2006, 08:35 PM	#8
Bud White VIP Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Elsewhere Posts: 17,476	no there's another one but box o truth is good read

November 8th, 2006, 08:16 AM	#10
Roundeyesamurai Ex Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 49	Hope: Before reading this post, I must say that on a practical basis, I agree with Bud in that most of this is academic, when considering various service pistol cartridges at very short combative ranges. However, in terms of broadening and deepening one's understanding of the study of firearms and ammunition, this material is invaluable. I posted recently in another thread about this subject, and I'll post here as well: Sectional density, in and of itself, doesn't mean very much. The combination of sectional density, ballistic coefficient, and velocity together determine the penetrative qualities of the bullet. There is an Achilles' Heel to this formula, however: It doesn't predict the amount of "hang time" that a bullet will experience once inside the body. The greater the "hang time" (amount of time the bullet spends travelling through the medium), the greater the tissue disruption (due to exertion of energy upon the material surrounding the bullet). Too much of any one of the three factors will drastically reduce "hang time". Hollowpoints are as effective as they are (in comparison to ball) for one very simple reason: It is possible to create a hollowpoint bullet which exhibits greater sectional density and ballistic coefficient needed to penetrate deeply, and such bullet can be propelled at greater velocity in order to develop greater kinetic energy, and then expand within the body and effectively reverse the SD-BC-V formula in order to assure a great deal of hang time (thereby assuring thorough expenditure of energy) by drastically reducing the bullet's penetrative qualities. I will post more after bit, but I must breakfast first.