I wonder why Jeff Cooper decided to develope the 10mm???

deadmarsh · November 21st, 2006, 10:57 AM

As the spokeman for the .45 ACP for countless years, a master combat shooter, and a writer, I really wonder why Cooper decided to develope the 10mm and a platform for the caliber?

Any ideas?

Dead

Musketeer · November 21st, 2006, 11:08 AM

Works in the same size platform as the 45

Higher Energy than the 45

Flatter Shooting than the 45

Large Mass (200 - 220 grain) (Comprable to the 45)

Seems clear to me.

denverd0n · November 21st, 2006, 11:32 AM

Something to do? Because it was there?

The 10mm has always seemed to me like a solution to a non-existent problem, but then there are a lot of those out there.

RSSZ · November 21st, 2006, 01:37 PM

Works in the same sized platform. AGREED

Higher energy than the .45. Partially AGREED. Same bbl lengths, and a .45+P comes pretty darn close. Especially if you plug in some of the TKO values.(CWV divided by 7000) Step up to the Super or especially the Rowland and the 10mm loses.

Flatter shooting than the .45 Kinda,almost,simi AGREE. But not at the "normal" pistol ranges. Especially the street combat ranges.

Large mass..... Back during the days of first conception(IIRC) they did not have the powders or even think of using a bullet heavier than (just guessing,the 180's) Remember that the 10mm uses a .400" bullet and the .41 mag uses a .410" bullet. So I say, I'm not sure what bullets were around in the first days of the 10 mil.

To why he thought that the world needed a smaller "faster" bullet than the .45,I don't have a clue. This was before the Super or Rowland but not(IIRC) before the .451 Detonics. It came as a surprise to many people I would guess.

I feel that for hunting,a 5 or 6 inch .45ACP with some of the +P or +P+ loads would be right up their with the 10mm. Especially loaded with some of the .45 Super brass. A 5" ACP with a simple bbl and spring change,in .460 Rowland would trounce any 10mm load. Even the DT loads.

Too bad that Glock decided to come out with their 20 in 10mm. Would have loved to see it out in a HOT!! .45. --------

SIXTO · November 21st, 2006, 01:39 PM

I think he was just bored.

deadmarsh · November 21st, 2006, 02:20 PM

RSSZ:

Yes, I do have a .460 Rowland conversion on a 1911 S&W Gov't and I must say it is impressive. It's my trail handgun when I hunt my Uncle's ranch in Montana near Yellowstone (just too many big bears that decided they didn't like the Park anymore wandering around)...

A 1350 f/s, 230gr XTP or solid @ 900+ ft lbs. is nice if you somehow get seperated from your rifle. And in a controllable package that can achieve rapid fire, my 5" or less .44 Magnums don't ride with me often anymore since the Rowland outperforms them with equal barrel lengths with a larger caliber...

I don't, however, like the name. Oh, I understand the reason, but since it can use .45ACP dies and such, the .460 designation is a bit misleading. IMO, something akin to .45 Hyper might have been better...

Dead

PS: I do like the Sierra 240gr JHC in the Rowland as well...

RSSZ · November 21st, 2006, 04:03 PM

We had a discussion at the range the other day about this.

For defense(of 2 OR 4 legged creatures) in the "relm" of .44mag ballistics,I feel that I would be better off with a 1911 auto,with 8+1 and a fast reload,than a 5 or 6 shot revo.

I have a "spare" 1911 sittin' in my safe. I ought to give Clark Custom a call.

I heard tell that Cooper was pleased with the Rowland thing and he actually had some input to it's finalization. -------

deadmarsh · November 21st, 2006, 04:21 PM

RSSZ:

If you have a C&R FFL, you can get the conversion for around $220.00...

Mine dropped into the S&W 1911 Gov't with no need for fitting. The toughest job was putting in the new 24# spring -- a padded vise is the secret and a couple tie-wraps. After a few dozen rounds, the spring is much more cooperative...

Reloads -- Starline brass, Golden Sabers, XTP, Sierra JHC proved very accurate; keep OAL to 1.250"...

My S&W is a non-ramped barrel so I DO NOT reload these to full pressures once fired - since we are at max pressures (39,000 psi) I use only virgin brass for firing the max pressures. I load 75% for once fired .460 Rowland -- not really necessry, but I'm usually conservative when it comes to my safety. The all steel 1911 platform can handle the pressures well; I'm just not too sure of the Starline brass...

I fire a mag or two every other range run (3 times/week usually) I carry 7+1 (MetalForm) and spare mags for the .460 are Mec-Gar 10 rounders...

Let me know if I can help in any way. You can get reload data through Google and a nice article about the conversion and loading from a non-Clark person....good luck

Dead

PS: I DO NOT recommend any shok-buffs....

dimmak · November 21st, 2006, 05:50 PM

I am a fan of 10mm....
Smith 1006 are very nice HGs and the CZs are a great value....
A bit pricey to shoot on a regular basis, though...

SatCong · November 21st, 2006, 06:10 PM

You compare 10mm with 45acp and 460 rowland and other's you forgot 10mm mag. Some people don't know but a pistol called Mars had a 10mm, so it's not so new as you think. No round well cover all situations. For me 45acp or 10mm for ccw.Been shooting both for years.

November 21st, 2006, 10:57 AM	#1
deadmarsh Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: USA - MN Posts: 45	I wonder why Jeff Cooper decided to develope the 10mm??? As the spokeman for the .45 ACP for countless years, a master combat shooter, and a writer, I really wonder why Cooper decided to develope the 10mm and a platform for the caliber? Any ideas? Dead

November 21st, 2006, 02:20 PM	#6
deadmarsh Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: USA - MN Posts: 45	RSSZ: Yes, I do have a .460 Rowland conversion on a 1911 S&W Gov't and I must say it is impressive. It's my trail handgun when I hunt my Uncle's ranch in Montana near Yellowstone (just too many big bears that decided they didn't like the Park anymore wandering around)... A 1350 f/s, 230gr XTP or solid @ 900+ ft lbs. is nice if you somehow get seperated from your rifle. And in a controllable package that can achieve rapid fire, my 5" or less .44 Magnums don't ride with me often anymore since the Rowland outperforms them with equal barrel lengths with a larger caliber... I don't, however, like the name. Oh, I understand the reason, but since it can use .45ACP dies and such, the .460 designation is a bit misleading. IMO, something akin to .45 Hyper might have been better... Dead PS: I do like the Sierra 240gr JHC in the Rowland as well... Last edited by deadmarsh; November 21st, 2006 at 02:22 PM. Reason: forgot a few things...

November 21st, 2006, 05:50 PM	#9
dimmak Distinguished Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: TN Posts: 1,754	I am a fan of 10mm.... Smith 1006 are very nice HGs and the CZs are a great value.... A bit pricey to shoot on a regular basis, though... __________________ "Ray Nagin is a colossal disappointment" - NRA/ILA Executive Director Chris W. Cox. "...be water, my friend."

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November 21st, 2006, 11:08 AM	#2
Musketeer Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: USA Posts: 699	Works in the same size platform as the 45 Higher Energy than the 45 Flatter Shooting than the 45 Large Mass (200 - 220 grain) (Comprable to the 45) Seems clear to me.

November 21st, 2006, 11:32 AM	#3
denverd0n Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Colorado Posts: 386	Something to do? Because it was there? The 10mm has always seemed to me like a solution to a non-existent problem, but then there are a lot of those out there.

November 21st, 2006, 01:37 PM	#4
RSSZ Distinguished Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Posts: 1,847	Works in the same sized platform. AGREED Higher energy than the .45. Partially AGREED. Same bbl lengths, and a .45+P comes pretty darn close. Especially if you plug in some of the TKO values.(CWV divided by 7000) Step up to the Super or especially the Rowland and the 10mm loses. Flatter shooting than the .45 Kinda,almost,simi AGREE. But not at the "normal" pistol ranges. Especially the street combat ranges. Large mass..... Back during the days of first conception(IIRC) they did not have the powders or even think of using a bullet heavier than (just guessing,the 180's) Remember that the 10mm uses a .400" bullet and the .41 mag uses a .410" bullet. So I say, I'm not sure what bullets were around in the first days of the 10 mil. To why he thought that the world needed a smaller "faster" bullet than the .45,I don't have a clue. This was before the Super or Rowland but not(IIRC) before the .451 Detonics. It came as a surprise to many people I would guess. I feel that for hunting,a 5 or 6 inch .45ACP with some of the +P or +P+ loads would be right up their with the 10mm. Especially loaded with some of the .45 Super brass. A 5" ACP with a simple bbl and spring change,in .460 Rowland would trounce any 10mm load. Even the DT loads. Too bad that Glock decided to come out with their 20 in 10mm. Would have loved to see it out in a HOT!! .45. --------

November 21st, 2006, 01:39 PM	#5
SIXTO VIP Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Here and There Posts: 10,067	I think he was just bored.

November 21st, 2006, 04:03 PM	#7
RSSZ Distinguished Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Posts: 1,847	We had a discussion at the range the other day about this. For defense(of 2 OR 4 legged creatures) in the "relm" of .44mag ballistics,I feel that I would be better off with a 1911 auto,with 8+1 and a fast reload,than a 5 or 6 shot revo. I have a "spare" 1911 sittin' in my safe. I ought to give Clark Custom a call. I heard tell that Cooper was pleased with the Rowland thing and he actually had some input to it's finalization. -------

November 21st, 2006, 04:21 PM	#8
deadmarsh Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: USA - MN Posts: 45	RSSZ: If you have a C&R FFL, you can get the conversion for around $220.00... Mine dropped into the S&W 1911 Gov't with no need for fitting. The toughest job was putting in the new 24# spring -- a padded vise is the secret and a couple tie-wraps. After a few dozen rounds, the spring is much more cooperative... Reloads -- Starline brass, Golden Sabers, XTP, Sierra JHC proved very accurate; keep OAL to 1.250"... My S&W is a non-ramped barrel so I DO NOT reload these to full pressures once fired - since we are at max pressures (39,000 psi) I use only virgin brass for firing the max pressures. I load 75% for once fired .460 Rowland -- not really necessry, but I'm usually conservative when it comes to my safety. The all steel 1911 platform can handle the pressures well; I'm just not too sure of the Starline brass... I fire a mag or two every other range run (3 times/week usually) I carry 7+1 (MetalForm) and spare mags for the .460 are Mec-Gar 10 rounders... Let me know if I can help in any way. You can get reload data through Google and a nice article about the conversion and loading from a non-Clark person....good luck Dead PS: I DO NOT recommend any shok-buffs....

November 21st, 2006, 06:10 PM	#10
SatCong Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Arizona Posts: 979	You compare 10mm with 45acp and 460 rowland and other's you forgot 10mm mag. Some people don't know but a pistol called Mars had a 10mm, so it's not so new as you think. No round well cover all situations. For me 45acp or 10mm for ccw.Been shooting both for years.