Cocktail mix in your magazines (Merged)

AH · March 27th, 2008, 01:03 PM

I know this exist in old threads,but they where closed.Feel free to delete this thread if am stepping one someones toes here..

"Bark'n" said on May 15th, 2007, 08:05 AM;

"To alternate hollow points and FMJ in the same magazine seems dangerous from a liability stand point.
Keep magazines loaded with bullets of the same kind."

-Am not a lawyer but would someone please explain that statement to me?Is there a problem lawfully to use a cocktail blend?

"vernonator" said on May 15th, 2007, 02:18 PM;

"All the training/reading I have done says NOT to do this. One is the over penetration factor mentioned by others. Two is you want every round to act the same way, a FMJ and HP may (or most probably will) have different POI's for the same POA....."

-Not following the initials here,sorry.I know that most close protection education reccomend you do use a cocktail blend.

Other mention that you have to remember what bullet is what.
-Why is that?Has that something to do with the liabillity?

When it comes to the weapons feeding problems..Why would it have feeding problem with a mix of hollow point and another type?

Thanks.
-Alan

pgrass101 · March 27th, 2008, 01:14 PM

It has to do with reliability issues not Legal ones.

POA vs POI is Point of Aim and Point of Impact.

Different bullet types behave differently. They might cause jams, have different preformances and cause other issues.

It is better to just keep one type that works.

I carry on mag of Hydroshocks for my .380 and a spare mag of FMJ's, I do not mix and match bullet types in the mag.

OPFOR · March 27th, 2008, 01:32 PM

What close protection education are you talking about? I know that the Secret Service and the Diplomatic Security Service (the two biggest close protection outfits going) do not do this, nor do they teach this under normal circumstances.

I know some PPD (a few, not most) guys in Iraq and Afghanistan who alternate JHP and FMJ, in the same bullet weights, in their 9mms - the idea (to them) is to give them a better chance of penetrating common vehicular barriers like window glass and car doors. Most folks do not spend their working day fighting from and against vehicles, so it seems like the cons outweigh the pros for most folks.

All that being said - if you test the reliability, if you give up nothing in accuracy, consistancy, controlability, etc.... It's your gun, your mags, and your ammo.

Sheldon J · March 27th, 2008, 05:17 PM

It's called "Dutch loading" and is more common than you may think, but it is best to practice and make sure you gun has no issues with this method.
Now my HK for example will function fine with any ammo in any order, +P stuff is dead on with this gun, and the accuracy difference you would encounter at most SD ranges is very small, in the 1/2" or less ballpark.

MitchellCT · March 27th, 2008, 06:04 PM

Most people toss the word liability around without having a clue about it.

MattLarson · March 27th, 2008, 06:13 PM

Given the many well-documented cases of FMJ over-penetration (as an example, the collection of cases Mas Ayoob presented a couple months ago in Handguns), I'd really avoid using it for personal defense.

I just don't see any advantage to mixing FMJ and JHP in a defensive pistol for the average CCW.

Matt

Ram Rod · March 27th, 2008, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Cocktail mix in your magazines

Everything else put aside, I've never heard of this sort of thing. I have a mag full of 5.56 where I alternate one tracer round for every 4 HP rounds. With pistols? Carry pistol mags at that? I wouldn't do it.

Sky Pilot · March 27th, 2008, 07:43 PM

OOPS!
Sorry, fellows, I thought this dealt with accidental introduction of adult beverage into the spring loaded dispenser!
Reason I thought this ... back home in the hill country, it was considered great sport to pour the cop's holster full of beer when he walked through the local watering hole, making his bar checks...

Ram Rod · March 27th, 2008, 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sky Pilot

OOPS!
Sorry, fellows, I thought this dealt with accidental introduction of adult beverage into the spring loaded dispenser!
Reason I thought this ... back home in the hill country, it was considered great sport to pour the cop's holster full of beer when he walked through the local watering hole, making his bar checks...

LenS · March 27th, 2008, 11:52 PM

Back in the early 1980s, our police chief was a personal friend as well as my part-time boss (I was a PT PO). One day we're talking in his office and he pulls a gorgeous S&W 27 revolver out of his desk drawer, unloads it and hands it to me to check out the action job on the gun (very sweet).

I gave him an "Ahem! That doesn't look like issue ammo to me" spiel. He had two semi-wadcutter .38SP rds, then 2 JHP .357 and not certain but 2 others may have been FMJ .357. Meanwhile we had to carry only the .38SP semi-wadcutters.

He told me that if he didn't stop them with the first pair, then the 2nd might do more damage, etc.

He was the boss and the rules didn't apply to him! He was also an expert marksman with trophies in his office. He was a Marine who served in Korea and was trim and fit to the very end (regrettably cancer at age 57).

That was the first and only "cocktail mix" that I ever ran into.

March 27th, 2008, 01:03 PM	#1
AH Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Utah Posts: 64	Cocktail mix in your magazines (Merged) I know this exist in old threads,but they where closed.Feel free to delete this thread if am stepping one someones toes here.. "Bark'n" said on May 15th, 2007, 08:05 AM; "To alternate hollow points and FMJ in the same magazine seems dangerous from a liability stand point. Keep magazines loaded with bullets of the same kind." -Am not a lawyer but would someone please explain that statement to me?Is there a problem lawfully to use a cocktail blend? "vernonator" said on May 15th, 2007, 02:18 PM; "All the training/reading I have done says NOT to do this. One is the over penetration factor mentioned by others. Two is you want every round to act the same way, a FMJ and HP may (or most probably will) have different POI's for the same POA....." -Not following the initials here,sorry.I know that most close protection education reccomend you do use a cocktail blend. Other mention that you have to remember what bullet is what. -Why is that?Has that something to do with the liabillity? When it comes to the weapons feeding problems..Why would it have feeding problem with a mix of hollow point and another type? Thanks. -Alan

March 27th, 2008, 01:14 PM	#2
pgrass101 Moderator Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Alabama Posts: 6,546	It has to do with reliability issues not Legal ones. POA vs POI is Point of Aim and Point of Impact. Different bullet types behave differently. They might cause jams, have different preformances and cause other issues. It is better to just keep one type that works. I carry on mag of Hydroshocks for my .380 and a spare mag of FMJ's, I do not mix and match bullet types in the mag. __________________ Noli nothis permittere te terere I am waiting on my personal bailout!!!

March 27th, 2008, 01:32 PM	#3
OPFOR VIP Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Baghdad Posts: 2,530	What close protection education are you talking about? I know that the Secret Service and the Diplomatic Security Service (the two biggest close protection outfits going) do not do this, nor do they teach this under normal circumstances. I know some PPD (a few, not most) guys in Iraq and Afghanistan who alternate JHP and FMJ, in the same bullet weights, in their 9mms - the idea (to them) is to give them a better chance of penetrating common vehicular barriers like window glass and car doors. Most folks do not spend their working day fighting from and against vehicles, so it seems like the cons outweigh the pros for most folks. All that being said - if you test the reliability, if you give up nothing in accuracy, consistancy, controlability, etc.... It's your gun, your mags, and your ammo. __________________ "It makes no difference what men think of war, said the judge. War endures. As well ask men what they think of stone. War was always here. Before man was, war waited for him. The ultimate trade awaiting its ultimate practitioner. That is the way it was and will be. That way and not some other way."

March 27th, 2008, 05:17 PM	#4
Sheldon J Distinguished Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Battle Creek, Mi. Posts: 1,686	It's called "Dutch loading" and is more common than you may think, but it is best to practice and make sure you gun has no issues with this method. Now my HK for example will function fine with any ammo in any order, +P stuff is dead on with this gun, and the accuracy difference you would encounter at most SD ranges is very small, in the 1/2" or less ballpark. __________________ "The sword dose not cause the murder, and the maker of the sword dose not bear sin" Rabbi Solomon ben Isaac 11th century

March 27th, 2008, 06:13 PM	#6
MattLarson Moderator Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Central Florida Posts: 2,510	Given the many well-documented cases of FMJ over-penetration (as an example, the collection of cases Mas Ayoob presented a couple months ago in Handguns), I'd really avoid using it for personal defense. I just don't see any advantage to mixing FMJ and JHP in a defensive pistol for the average CCW. Matt __________________ Hope is not a plan.

March 27th, 2008, 06:04 PM	#5
MitchellCT Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Connecticut Posts: 753	Most people toss the word liability around without having a clue about it.

March 27th, 2008, 07:43 PM	#8
Sky Pilot Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Lorain County, Ohio Posts: 483	OOPS! Sorry, fellows, I thought this dealt with accidental introduction of adult beverage into the spring loaded dispenser! Reason I thought this ... back home in the hill country, it was considered great sport to pour the cop's holster full of beer when he walked through the local watering hole, making his bar checks... __________________ Center Township Combat Pistol League

March 27th, 2008, 11:52 PM	#10
LenS Distinguished Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: US Posts: 1,348	Back in the early 1980s, our police chief was a personal friend as well as my part-time boss (I was a PT PO). One day we're talking in his office and he pulls a gorgeous S&W 27 revolver out of his desk drawer, unloads it and hands it to me to check out the action job on the gun (very sweet). I gave him an "Ahem! That doesn't look like issue ammo to me" spiel. He had two semi-wadcutter .38SP rds, then 2 JHP .357 and not certain but 2 others may have been FMJ .357. Meanwhile we had to carry only the .38SP semi-wadcutters. He told me that if he didn't stop them with the first pair, then the 2nd might do more damage, etc. He was the boss and the rules didn't apply to him! He was also an expert marksman with trophies in his office. He was a Marine who served in Korea and was trim and fit to the very end (regrettably cancer at age 57). That was the first and only "cocktail mix" that I ever ran into.

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